Author Topic: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?  (Read 4294 times)

elijahpederson

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What would be the range differences between certain weapons. E.G. Lasers to missiles to railguns, etc. Will the range distances be small things you'll have to maneuver into carefully with math and custom radar programming, or will there be large range distances between certain types of weapons, and I'll be able to simply judge how far (A recticle showing the enemies and the amount of kms/ms away they are would be fantastic for this)



Will I be able to chop your ship into pieces with lasers when I'm not even on your sensors?

Me2005

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 07:22:57 pm »
What would be the range differences between certain weapons. E.G. Lasers to missiles to railguns, etc.

They'll likely vary greatly, being laid out longest-shortest range somewhat similar to how you've got them. It's possible it won't be so much a range issue as a velocity issue - Lasers might just hitscan, while missiles and projectiles take time to travel to target and can be dodged; but all of them can hit all targets in any given game-space.

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Will the range distances be small things you'll have to maneuver into carefully with math and custom radar programming, or will there be large range distances between certain types of weapons, and I'll be able to simply judge how far (A recticle showing the enemies and the amount of kms/ms away they are would be fantastic for this)

They'll likely be noticeable differences, if that's what you mean. If not, I'm not sure.

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Will I be able to chop your ship into pieces with lasers when I'm not even on your sensors?

Unlikely unless there is also stealth, being that light will travel at the same speed from both your ship and your weapons it'd be illogical for that to work that way.



On that note though, I was thinking a good stealth setup and light/heavy ship distinction might be something similar to World of Tank's detection system - smaller ships can get closer to larger ships before being 'spotted,' while the larger ships can be seen from further away. They could invest heavily (10%+ mass) in sensor equipment to increase the spot range against smaller vessels. That'd tie into weapon differences too - lighter vessels would be able to get in under heavier vessels larger weapons.
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Cy83r

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 11:47:39 pm »
that spotting system is very hit or miss, most times I find it's the difference of a twitch on my thumbstick that figures whether my T5 light tank is going to get the first shot or be pummeled by three T8s
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MRC

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 03:24:01 am »
I'd really like the range on weapons to be in term of "effective range" rather than an absolute range limit. Basically meaning that past a certain range, because of the slight inaccuracy you're more likely to miss than hit a stationary target. At default guns could refuse to shoot past this range but could be overridden if you want to take the gamble.

Will I be able to chop your ship into pieces with lasers when I'm not even on your sensors?
Hopefully not, you shouldn't have one-way fights like this. Such long range combat should be more of a wild flailing, firing everything hoping something will hit by pure luck. That could allow interesting tactical decisions for the victim.
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Czorio

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 07:41:00 am »
I think stealth should be heat based. Like Mass Effect, really. Shooting a laser would increase your heat signature, and if the targetted ship has sensible systems, it would automatically activate its shields when any kind of damage occurs.

That said, I do agree with that there should not be a maximum range perse, but lasers do tend to diverge over distance, thus losing intensity and projectiles are inherently going to be inaccurate over long distances.

Accuracy should be a product of the accuracy of the ship's sensors and the accuracy of the servomotors that move the weaponry, the latter is probably so accurate in the future that it does not really come into effect though.
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elijahpederson

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 11:20:27 am »
I think stealth should be heat based. Like Mass Effect, really. Shooting a laser would increase your heat signature, and if the targetted ship has sensible systems, it would automatically activate its shields when any kind of damage occurs.

That said, I do agree with that there should not be a maximum range perse, but lasers do tend to diverge over distance, thus losing intensity and projectiles are inherently going to be inaccurate over long distances.

Accuracy should be a product of the accuracy of the ship's sensors and the accuracy of the servomotors that move the weaponry, the latter is probably so accurate in the future that it does not really come into effect though.
If you can see the ship through the semi-transparent shield - that means photons can travel through the shield. So can a laser's photons.



If in-game coding is possible I could build a probe to find the location of your ship, and then I could make a custom-coded turret fire a laser at those coordinates - The range would be practically limitless
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 11:28:05 am by elijahpederson »

Me2005

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 11:56:34 am »
that spotting system is very hit or miss, most times I find it's the difference of a twitch on my thumbstick that figures whether my T5 light tank is going to get the first shot or be pummeled by three T8s

In that game, it's likely because of the huge number of variables, from your crew being less skilled to your cover being slightly worse to the spotting vehicle being better at spotting or harder to spot. In this one it'd be a pretty limited "this guy has more mass and/or generates more heat," maybe with a modifier for hiding behind something. Which would provide plenty of complexity - if my ship is 1 block more than yours I'd have a different spotting signature (albiet, 1 block probably wouldn't matter much unless it was a radiator, engine, or reactor).

I'm still leaning toward "weapons (except lasers) travel slowly enough to be dodged but have unlimited range" on that end.

If you can see the ship through the semi-transparent shield - that means photons can travel through the shield. So can a laser's photons.

Sci-fi sir, sci-fi. The shield works to block incoming laser (or other weapons) fire and no one knows why or how.

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If in-game coding is possible I could build a probe to find the location of your ship, and then I could make a custom-coded turret fire a laser at those coordinates - The range would be practically limitless

Now, despite that this is fiction we're discussing, this suggestion is particularly ridiculous. Can you build a probe and 'find' hidden ships at sea better than you can see them? No. Now the sea is infinitely smaller than the distances we're dealing with in space. Even in Earth's orbit, you'd conceivably have engagement ranges better measured by the diameter of the planet than by the mere tens of kilometers ships at sea can handle.

Just realized you might be talking about a drone, in which case, those work great at sea because they can go up and get a better view. Can't do that in space, it'd be more like building a small dinghy to try to find an aircraft carrier 100 kilometers away in a storm. You'd never find them, and probably never even get close before running out of fuel.

That's moot though, because there isn't stealth in space. We're talking about limiting detection as an inherent feature, by heat or mass + heat, so that smaller ships have a bit more purpose and a defense big ones don't. You wouldn't be looking for a ship with a probe because you'd know that it couldn't be within X of you (likely it's weapons effective range) without your being able to see it.



That brings up another WoT mechanic - armor. What if armor (or shields) in this game was able to absorb/reflect damage based on armor thickness in a similar way? Now, we're using 1m blocks, so we'd probably have light-medium-heavy plate that counts as more blocks of armor instead of trying to lay it on thicker than a few layers, and armored components that count as some amount of armor, but if shots could hit and do *no* damage based on ship design & use that'd be pretty awesome. More awesome than always doing X blocks/plates of damage IMO.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

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You are destiny.

MRC

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 12:49:26 pm »
As much as it is space-ey and realistic, battle outside of visual range aren't really attractive to me. I think the bulk of the damage in a fight should only happen while you have a visual. Though, it shouldn't stop you from firing in hope of landing a lucky shot, or to force a target raise it's shield, wasting it's energy.

There's plenty of good tactical opportunity coming from random, long range, inaccurate-as-hell shelling without it needing to actually be deadly. Let's keep the deadly bit for where I can see the fireworks!  ;D

As for stealth, could be good, as long as detecting your target first isn't a decisive factor in battles. Firstly it should be a strategic advantage, not a combat advantage, lets you plan the assault a bit better as long as you're not detected. Secondly keep modern military shooters' combat style out of my spaceship game.  :P
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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 02:43:08 pm »
@elijahpederson:

Q: What would be the range differences between certain weapons. E.G. Lasers to missiles to railguns, etc.
A: We haven't yet determined ranges for specific weapons.  A lot of it is going to be related to netcode optimization. =\


Q: Will the range distances be small things you'll have to maneuver into carefully with math and custom radar programming, or will there be large range distances between certain types of weapons, and I'll be able to simply judge how far (A recticle showing the enemies and the amount of kms/ms away they are would be fantastic for this)
A: Probably some big differences between ranges on weapons.  For netcode's sake, a majority of projectile weapons will have to have a limited range to make sure we don't crash the server, so we have to design weapons around things like that.  We'd prefer it if there was strategy to avoiding enemy fire and are going to experiment with a couple methods in Unity to see if they're feasible (/fun).

Keep in mind there is going to be a big separation between ships in instanced space, and ships in warp within a solar system.  So there's certainly room for some form of "ultra long range" weapon to take place in the solar system map instead of instanced space. ^^

Q: Will I be able to chop your ship into pieces with lasers when I'm not even on your sensors?
A: As long as you're in the same instanced sector, I think it'd be possible.  Not sure if a weapon that strong would be in vanilla, but it's possible. =]

Again, we'd like for certain weapons to be able to be fired across the solar system - they'll be going faster than light, obviously , so that's another way you could hit something from a distance; however, the damage has to be different since in the case of NPC's their entities (and therefor voxels) don't exist until they're out of warp.


A few things to consider:
  -  I'd prefer you played new Micah's Unity standalone so you get a sense of speed, scale, and distance.
  -  Your ship exists both in the solar system map, and in an instanced area of space when you've dropped out of warp.
  -  Our largest supported ship is pretty much indistinguishable at 70km, and just a bright light in space at 100km.
  -  At 1500m/s to 5500m/s (the speeds we're looking at), you can approach an enemy pretty quick.
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Czorio

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 08:06:55 am »
C-RAM (Counter Rocket And Mortar) systems irl detonate the rounds after a set amount of distance so they don't kill someone who happens to be in the trajectory for when the rounds come falling down. Combine that thought with the speech in Mass Effect 2 about Newton being a deadly SoB and you have your handwavium for why projectiles disappear after a set distance.
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Iago

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 10:46:31 am »
And that is why you don't fire weapons of mass destruction from the hip
Superbia mentis potens in armis.

Cy83r

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2014, 04:47:55 pm »
R.E. I can see you through your shield, so that means the IR and UV lasers can too
Separate ranges of the optical spectrum, mates, shields can be tuned to allow visible and comms interaction while excluding the weaponized ranges of EMS.  On the flipside, that means while visible-spectrum lasers aren't very efficient at causing damage, they can get through vis-spec shielding.

Then again, I'd rather make my shield transparent to my microwave and radar scanners and just paint the television screens on the observation deck with spectrally enhanced video footage- you know, the type where you can see nebula and the color coming off suns rather than empty space and dull yellow orbs of blinding brightness?
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Czorio

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2014, 05:35:25 pm »
Don't forget the turning planet's radiowaves into audible sound for that true deep space feel!
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MRC

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Re: What will be the range differences between certain weapons?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2014, 08:23:01 pm »
Don't forget the turning planet's radiowaves into audible sound for that true deep space feel!

That would make for some very "interesting" sound design. I wonder what a battle would actually sound like if we use this technique for weapons and engine.

Probably would sound terrible and nothing like what we should go for but I'd like to hear that just to know.  :P
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Iago

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