Author Topic: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions  (Read 3695 times)

Holy Thunder

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Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« on: December 07, 2013, 05:16:56 pm »
I thought it would be helpful to discuss existing techs, new techs, and potential counters/balances here. Note that this is not necessarily what I or you intend to pursue, only to help get the possibilities into the open and even the playing field. Discuss what changes may be needed, what you feel would be fair, etc. It'll help address the "closed door" feelings and the perception that veterans have an advantage.

The OP here will focus on the effects of specific technologies in hypothetical battles, to help understand and learn the combat system.  This will mostly emphasize that larger fleets will inherently take fewer casualties, just by being large.  Remember that the details of combat modifiers are secret, so we don't (yet) know exactly what it  ;Dtakes to reach a 2x modifer. Me2005 likes it that way to maintain the mystery of combat, and I like it that way too.

Me2005, some of the die notations in your main thread OP...they're a bit difficult to read, so I'm just doing the best I can. For calculating purposes, we'll assume that die rolls are successful for  exactly the predicted rate. Actual results will vary.  Hypothetical battles assume exactly idential battle techs and no special techs for the enemy, unless otherwise specified.  I probably can't cover them all in the OP.


EMP: 
Spoiler

Takes place before the engagement, when your weapons/defense/quality upgrades can take effect. It disables, but does not kill enemy ships.   

Effect: First, automatically disable 1 enemy ship for everry 6 ships in your fleet.  Then roll a 1/6 die to determine whether the EMP was successful. If it was, a second D6 determines how many ships were effected. The second D6 means that between 1 and 6 ships are affected; additional levels increase the maxium number of ships affected.

100 vs 100 battle: 1/6 of your fleet or 17 ships automatically disable enemy ships. Then, 16.7% of the time, an additional 3 ships (midpoint between 1 and 6) will also be affected. The battle becomes 100 vs 83. Since your techs are identical, you leave with 17 survivors. Two points:  1) This happens pre-modifier. If his ships are stronger than yours, this will hurt more. 2) If you use this to engage an enemy with 1/6 of your fleet or less, you will instantly disable their entire fleet.

Questions:
1) The fate of disabled ships in a lost battle is unclear: If you disable 20 of my ships and I win the battle, I keep those ships the next turn. But if I lose, do I keep those ships the next turn or do you destroy them post-battle?

2) Can additional levels have an either/or effect? For instance 12 points could increase the size of the bonus hit, or increase the likelihood of the bonus hit?

Stealth:
Spoiler

Keeps you off the map. Does not work for combat, i.e. when combat starts you're no longer hidden. When you get within enemy sensor range, your chance of being spotted looks like a 1/2 die roll, with a extra denominator added each level. Level 2 becomes 1/3, level 3 becomes 1/4, etc.  It's not clear whether the enemy's sensor level comes into play. It would make sense if they did, but it's not clear how.

Questions:
1) Can there be a specific steal detector tech for 12 points, which automatically reveals stealthed ships within range?

2) If so, can there be a "deep stealth" tech that specifically hides from that detection?  If not that's cool, just how I'd envisioned it.

Vanguard:
Spoiler
Keeps you from being wiped off the map if you lose a battle. Your survivors move to the nearest STL location within range (or the farthest?) instead of dying. This seems like a great time to get into the combat dynamic. Let's say you have 100 FS, and you're pretty strong--you have a 2x modifier. But you fight somebody who has 75 FS, and turns out to have a 5x modifier. Your post-modified strength is 200, while his is 375. You lose. But since you have Vanguard, 10% of your ships don't fight. The battle becomes 180 vs 375 post-modifer, while 20 of your post-modified ships retreat. He's left with 175 post-modified survivors. Thenwe divide by your 2 and his 5 to determine the actual on-map survivors. He's left with 35 FS, and you have 10 FS at the neighboring planet. 

Please note that it's probably going to be a while before we see 5x modifiers. More likely is that each upgrade to your weapons/quality/defense adds closer to 0.1 or 0.2 to your overall modifier, and the spreadsheet deals with more decimals. For our purposes, whole numbers just work better.

Questions:
1) Did I get that right, and salvaged FS do not actually fight? Or do they fight (inflicting damge) and get to retreat anyway?

2) What happens if there are no other STL locations?

Capture:
Spoiler

Nerfed incredibly. As it currently reads, it's a straight-up 1/20 chance per FS to capture an enemy FS. Given the tactical impact of the other techs we see here, this actually seems under-balanced. If your fleet is 100 strong, you're only likely to capture 5 enemy ships, which seems pretty negligible.   

Unless I misread that, and it's actually a 1/6 or 1/4 (or unspecified) roll per FS to capture ships, with a 20-ship cap. That would  make more sense, with extra 12-point levels optionally increasing either the capture rate or the overall cap, at the discretion of the player. Me2005, any clarity here would be great. :D

Minefield:
Spoiler

Pretty straight-up. 2 AP place a hidden minefield, which does between 1-6 damage to enemy FS upon entering that area. Additional level increase the number of possible enemy ships killed. The OP doesn't specify how much it changes the die, but for 12 points I'd hope for at least 2.

The "straight-up" nature of this practically begs for possible variants. A doomsday planet-based mine, for instance, which sacrifices PS or PI in exchange for larger FS casualties.

When I first asked Me2005 about these, he was controlling the LB and offered to allow me to keep the minefield locations recorded, but secret from him. I thought this was pretty cool.

Questions:
1) How exactly would a 12-point "Minesweeper" tech work?

2) How about a fleet-based defensive minefield tech work?  That is, your fleets automatically form a tight defensive position and deploy minefields whenever they end a turn somewhere. If they are attacked directly, the enemy hits the minefields. How many points would that take, and how effective would it be? To offset the mobile advantage, I'd suggest more points, less damgage, or a defense-modifier penalty when the battle starts.

(For those reading, the above series of questions is typical of my asking-about-new-tech PMs to Me2005. They are frequent.)

More to come later!


« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 05:40:45 pm by Holy Thunder »
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Cy83r

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 08:57:48 pm »
I said I was kidding, but yeah, good idea; more text incoming when I'm not on my phone
Jibreel: Yeah but [Hufer] that's like [Axis] complaining that his Toyota Camry is stuck in the mud and you responding "Well my M1 Abrams doesn't seem to be having much trouble."

Commander Jackson

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 09:45:01 pm »
The Capture Technology should not be seen as over-powered in the previous GW.  Capture tech is something that SHOULD have a counter-tech.  If someone were to have a gun while the other person had nothing and were both put into am arena to fight the one with the gun will almost always win untill the other guy is given a gun to even the odds.

Same thing goes for boarding a ship.

For most of the game I was the only one with armed boarding parties.  Holy Thunder discovered this toward the end and quickly got several techs to nullify it.

It would be a balance between capture tech level and anti-boarding party tech

Naturally these will be expensive to keep people from having their military centered around this.


Automatic Post Merge: December 07, 2013, 09:48:51 pm
I said I was kidding, but yeah, good idea; more text incoming when I'm not on my phone

I did mention that everything I post was typed on my phone.

The the last time I used an actual computer to post was at least a year ago.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 10:06:39 pm by Commander Jackson »
Gabe has a wraith? That explains so much.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 11:22:43 pm »
@Cj: It SHOULD be powerful, yes. The reason it was out-of-balance is because it was so much stronger than other combat special-techs of the same price, which made it an unfair advantage.  I had level 8 weapons and level 7 defense, level 3 reflective shielding, an armor debuff for 25%--116 points of combat technology that would have been overwhelmed and completely disregarded by your 24-point technology.  It wasn't until I spent another 36 points on barrage, EMP, AND Self-Destruct that I was somewhat confident in overcoming your advantage provided by that one single tech. No one technology should be so powerful--and if it is, it should cost more than less powerful techs to balance I out.

@phone posting--Part of my recent upgrade was specifically to post here more easily...lol
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Cy83r

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 09:40:58 am »
Are we talking realistic capture of ships or cinematic versions?  And which type in that case; boarding happens often and determines the flow of battle a la ancient tiremes; or happens occasionally but can swing morale in your favor a la the age of sail?
Jibreel: Yeah but [Hufer] that's like [Axis] complaining that his Toyota Camry is stuck in the mud and you responding "Well my M1 Abrams doesn't seem to be having much trouble."

Holy Thunder

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 04:32:40 pm »
It comes into play every battle, but the current version has little effect; which in a way makes sense, since getting so close to a ship in space should be challenging. But it should probably be more effective than it is now.

I also really want to make sure the apparent capture controversy doesn't overshadow or torpedo the fun of the rest of the game.
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Commander Jackson

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 04:55:34 pm »
It comes into play every battle, but the current version has little effect; which in a way makes sense, since getting so close to a ship in space should be challenging. But it should probably be more effective than it is now.

I also really want to make sure the apparent capture controversy doesn't overshadow or torpedo the fun of the rest of the game.

Hm...

The methods of capture was never explained in the original GW.  Give me some time to make the capture tech more elaborate than a simple 12 point  technology.

I have so many ideas :)

Just leave it to me.  And give me some time to type it down.
Gabe has a wraith? That explains so much.

Me2005

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 12:11:23 pm »
It comes into play every battle, but the current version has little effect; which in a way makes sense, since getting so close to a ship in space should be challenging. But it should probably be more effective than it is now.

I assumed it was some kind of transporter and carried on happily. In any event, the jist was that CJ's forces figured out a way to effectively capture enemy ships, be it by beaming hoards of marines onboard or by microwaving the things.

EMP: Disabled ships are ignored unless the winner wins by a clear enough margin that they can annihilate them. That is, you disable your 16-17 ships, and then if you've got destructive capacity left after the battle (and if you're trading ships 1:1 and have the same number to start, you do), you destroy the disabled ships.

Ex: 100 vs 100, same FS mod. 16 of one fleet are disabled - so both loose 84 ships. The attacker has 16 fighting ships left, the defender 16 disabled ships, so the attacker wipes them out and wins with 16 ships remaining.

Ex 2: 100 vs 100, defender has FS mod of 2. 16 are still disabled, but the attacker looses his entire fleet while the defender only looses 50. At the start of the next turn, the defender has 66 ships available.

Ex 3: The defender has a slight advantage, where he looses his whole fleet but the attacker doesn't loose his whole fleet, but uses up his whole attack quota. There are 16 disabled ships remaining against the attacker, and he may need to face them next round.

Frankly, I'm having a hard time figuring out when, exactly, Ex3 happens. I think it'd be when an attacker wants to push through to hit planets, and so it is in his interest to use the attack quota to hit active targets rather than passive ones. It'd need to be a mixed-modifier bag, otherwise he'd always have leftover attack and blow some of the disabled ships up too.

Stealth: I'm pretty sure your sensor level plays into it, but I think it's a compare + die roll. If you roll a 2 and they have a sensor level 2 higher than yours, you are detected (on a 50/50 D6 roll). I'll need to check, and then you guys may/may not like  that setup.

Vanguard: I may need to revisit that one, what you describe sounds different than what I remember. 10% of your ships survive, but do fire off whatever shots they can before fleeing, so their damage is counted. I think it might just be a 10% damage reduction, which could still mean you get wiped out if they have 10% more damage than you have ships.

Capture: I'll need to look into. Part of the reason it got nerfed is because in the next battle, 5% of your ships are now helping fight against you. It turns into a kingmaker situation, where once the person doing the capturing gets rolling they cannot be stopped.

Mines/All Die: Pretty much any level changes the D# by 2.
A minesweeper might be a jump-abort system; the mines are still there/deadly, but you know about them and you (can) stop the jump before you make it.



Going to try to get the update out today, I need to get some other stuff done so it might be pushed back to tomorrow.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Commander Jackson

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 12:55:02 pm »
Boarding Shuttles
Ships must be equipped with boarding shuttles to attempt this.  Like the name suggests, the attacking ship deploys boarding shuttles to attack the defending ship.  The defending ship will attempt to shoot down the shuttles.
Cannot be used in Asteroid Fields
STL/Sensors (if sensors win proceed to following line).
STL/Ship Strength

Ramming Based
Any ship can attempt this method.  Like the name suggests, this technique involves the attacking ship ramming the defending ship, disabling both, then deploying armed troops.
STL/STL

Automatic Post Merge: December 09, 2013, 12:56:13 pm
When I came up with the idea I described it as transporters.
Gabe has a wraith? That explains so much.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 03:36:15 pm »



I like the adaptations, CJ. Gives pros, cons, better chances to shoot it down.

Me2005, the "kingmaker" situation make sense, I hadn't considered that before.  On the other hand, fleet sizes are likely to be small enough that 5% will often lead to 2 or 3 ships captured, or less. Compared to disabling or outright destroying enemy FS at a 1/6 or more ratio, it seems a bit weak.

I really think we can make it balance, and maybe even add some variety to it.


1) Shuttle- or teleporter- based capture. Since Capture is exactly twice as powerful as EMP or Barrage in that you get to keep the ship you kill, give it exactly half the success ratio. Shuttles attempt capture at a 1/12 roll. All ships still get to fight. Extra levels make for smaller dice--level 2 = 11 sides, level 3 = 10 sides, etc.  Cap it off at 8 levels, so that a player must spend 96 points to get half of the capture that was available in the previous game. That's a scary thought until you consider that level 8 EMP or Barrage will be even scarier, because they take effect before Capture does.


2) Ramming-based capture. Give it the same efficiency as EMP or Barrage with a 1/6 success rate, but ships engaged in Capture are always disabled for the conventional fight. Ships that attempt and fail to capture have a 1/5 chance of being destroyed, unless the entire enemy fleet is captured. A maximum of 12 FS may attempt capture at the same time, for the odds of capturing 2 enemy FS and losing 2 FS to break even.

 


NOt sure how that would balance.


What do you guys think?
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Me2005

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 05:31:08 pm »
The other deal is that you can upgrade the tech to get better die, so D20 is a decent starting point. Last round, 24 points got put into the tech before it ever saw action.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 05:51:35 pm »
True, but then it's unbalanced the other way. EMP level 1, 16.7% of the enemy's ships are knocked out. At Capture 8, 108 points later, with a 12-sided die, you're only capturing 8% of the enemy fleet. 
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Commander Jackson

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 10:55:08 pm »
...Last round, 24 points got put into the tech before it ever saw action.

I was planing on spending 60 points into upgrading it before using it.  But then the Theta and Colonists happened...

(RIP: About 108 FS lost in the Theta+Colonist/SDF War,  memorial service was will be held at the soonest possible time)
Gabe has a wraith? That explains so much.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2014, 12:18:34 pm »
Some thoughts:


A) New special tech, discussed and confirmed with Me2005:  Terraforming.

12 points per level, so that you can create new planets in your system. Level 1 allows 1 planet, level 2 allows 2 planets, and so on. Then it's 12 points to construct the new planet. So in our home systems you would need 24 points to reach level 2, and then 12 points to build your second planet. But later, you can use 12 points in any one-planet system to build a second planet there too.

B) Stations questions:

  1)Did we confirm that there are two stations allowed per system?

  2) What is the upper limit to station levels? I intend to put a lot of points into this soon, and it'd be helpful to know ahead of time. For point-producing stations, 10 or 12 seems like a nice cap. I'd prefer not  to see a cap on defense or scanner stations, but 10 or 12 doesn't seem terribly unreasonable there either.

3) I'm also a bit fuzzy on how they fight. Do the Defense stations fight as FS, PS, or PS with FS abilities? Or something else entirely?
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Me2005

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Re: Galactic War 2 : Tech Discussions
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2014, 01:24:18 pm »
B) Stations questions:

  1)Did we confirm that there are two stations allowed per system?

  2) What is the upper limit to station levels? I intend to put a lot of points into this soon, and it'd be helpful to know ahead of time. For point-producing stations, 10 or 12 seems like a nice cap. I'd prefer not  to see a cap on defense or scanner stations, but 10 or 12 doesn't seem terribly unreasonable there either.

3) I'm also a bit fuzzy on how they fight. Do the Defense stations fight as FS, PS, or PS with FS abilities? Or something else entirely?

2 Stations per 1-planet system. 3 in no-planet systems. 1 in 2+ planet systems. If you go around terraforming your systems, that may be problematic, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

No upper limit as yet. I thought I'd figured out that the more points you put into a station, the closer it's pay-off time comes to 6/7 rounds for whatever it produces, defense stations don't really pay off but they're different.

Something else. Most just resist being fought, using the FS numbers I think. They don't loose points unless they are destroyed by bombardment-type techs, and they are captured if they are otherwise overwhelmed. The Defense platform can fight back (or instigate an in-system fight), and I think it uses the higher of your values. The Launcher only launches, it doesn't fight; it's kind of like a mortar.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.