Author Topic: Fabrication Mechanics thread  (Read 4292 times)

Jmanndriver

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Fabrication Mechanics thread
« on: September 29, 2011, 01:45:14 pm »
Want to get peoples takes on specifics of fabrication in game. This is a link to the generalization thread for each system.http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=199.0

I believe that we should have different sized fabrication methods.

Small ones that are in single blocks for things like guns. (star trek replication chambers for food)

Medium ones for materials like hull, and basic elements.

Large ones for drones and other such mechanics that are needed to build things such as reactors.

I believe the type of thing you are making and the size of the machine should use power accordingly.

what do you guys think?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 01:48:54 pm by Jmanndriver »


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Matz05

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 08:00:52 pm »
Sounds interesting. Here is a post of mine from the old forums:

My ideas:

Items have these variables: The materials in them, processes needed to build and the "resolution" (complexity/difficulty) of the process, and a quality level.

A "crafting device" would have a resolution limit for different processes (casting, seperation, fusing, molecular manipulation, and replication?) and possibly some reliability factors.
Resolution over the item's limit for a given process would overflow into quality.
Reliability would reduce negative results from random fluctuations in quality that could make an item useless.
Certain material handling/construction processes could be exclusive to more advanced crafting devices.
Quality of a crafting device would affect reliability -- a high-tech fabricator may be useful, but if it is defective or cheaply made, expect the products to follow suit!

Casting: Forming components of larger and larger sizes acurately. Basicly machine shop processes. Varies from an anvil to any futuristic automated "heavy" industry.

Separation: Using impure reagents for purer products. Low levels need high-purity input, while high levels allow recycling of finished products into other items. Smelters, etc.

Fusing: Soldering, welding, assembly. One can prefab components for technology on low-fusing devices, but the final step (and possibly some intermediaries) in production needs a certain level of finesse. Ranges from a simple soldering station to a complex system of transporters and lasers.

Molecular Manipulation: Chemicaly altering substances. Higher levels open up more uses of the same reagent by shuffling the arangements of molecules and atoms. Goes from Ye Olde Alchmelist's Labe to cutting-edge nanomaterial factories.

Replication: The ultimate process for deep-space production. Allows "fudging" of input materials in exchange for a rediculous power draw (don't expect a handheld version that can make anything bigger/more complex than a transistor) and a decreace in reliability of the job (more defects). High levels allow a ship to stock only common reagents, and still make a wide range of devices.

The basic "emergency suit recycler" could be handheld (battery powered?) and have stats like "C3 S2, F2, M1, R0, Rel3", Meaning that it is adaquate at forming metal/plastic/whatever parts, mediocre at recycling/refining things, lousy at assembling complex devices, barely able to chemicaly modify substances, and not able at all to change the atomic structure of materials or make them from energy at a reliability cost. Often results in waste/substandard products.

Early specialized devices could include:
A recycler/refiner (something like C2, S5, F0, M0, R0, Rel 7, so you can make nice ingots of material and not much else) This is what makes everyday rocks/junk into materials useful for casting
A "foundry module" (C6, S1, F1, M0, R0, Rel 5, so you can make large, simple equipment [walls, wheels, etc.] out of the blocks the refiner spits out, or other almost-pure materials) This is where bodies for equipment are often made.
A "workstation" (C1, S1, F4, M1, R0, Rel 7, so you can assemble small devices from parts and do basic chemical operations [work with optics and electronics, etc]) This is where a laser pistol or other intricate device is finaly assembled.
A "chemist's workstation" (C0, S2, F1, M4, R0, Rel 5, so you can crystalize stuff, manufacture electrical components, etc. Also can do some purification.) This is where you would make lenses, shotgun shells, basic crystals, etc.


A late game Replicator may have C3, S4, F4, M5, R6, Rel 6, so that any small (low Casting requirement) devices wanted can be made out of impure (high Separation), "off" (high Molecular Manipulation [coal->diamond, etc.]), or just plain lacking (Replicated) materials.
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Posted By Alaric on 28 Jun 2011 04:54 PM
...it doesn't matter, I making space ships!

Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 11:25:31 pm »
I am going to condense all that into, it is put together with science. lol, we can do a molecular fabrication machine to make things like they did in Star Trek and many other books such as Ring World by Larry Niven.

These would make producing things easier but they would cost more energy because of the power it takes to molecularly assemble stuff atom by atom. The more complex an object, the longer it will take to assemble.

Another big advantage of this is that we wouldn't have to store food that has the potential to rot. We can just store basic food elements and use the machine to put it into something edible.

If we got ones big enough we could even theoretically put together small craft.


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Alias72

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 11:58:12 pm »
i would actually like to take a step back.

the definition of fabrication is obvious, but its context is not. to put it simply we need to know whether were manufacturing single blocks, or ships. i could write a small book on either so you must define what you are actually implying with the term fabrication.

Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 12:08:20 am »
It is more of a brick/item deal. We could make small crafts like drop pods with it though.


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Alias72

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 12:31:30 am »
the reason i asked is that there is a stark difference in shuttles vs computers.
for the building of specialized blocks like computers i suggest a system similar to minecraft's construction table except more sci-fi. in other words a replicator. but of course it gets more complex then that. you should have intermediate blocks such as microprocessors and generic electrical components. each of these should provide it's attributes to the item being built. of course this adds a layer of complexity to a game where players are already swamped building a km long replica of a cobra class destroyer.

on the subject of small craft such as shuttles we have a dilemma. shuttles and small ships are made of many distinct parts, and as such follow the same rules as ships. unless you want to add a whole new specialized layer for multi-part constructs such as reactors, shuttles, doors, turrets, possibly even segments of ships. it comes right down to the fact that you need to understand how to build the big in order to understand how to build the small. relativity can't come before inertia.

i think it is safe to assume the largest ships to be built will be approximately 1.5 km long maximum. ships that long can be built in a few ways, i shall list 3.
  • Shipyard
  • Modular
  • Segmental
in the shipyard method the entire craft is built block by block in a shipyard. the shipyard is just a skeleton with mechanical arms. this may actually be the most efficient means of producing a ship, however the cost of the dry-dock scales exponentially with the size of the ship and the work possible scales down as the surface are makes up less of the total ship. as such the efficiency drops with scale, being extremely high for simple objects. in fact this method may be suited for building parts of ships, reactors, turrets, which plays into the next portion.

to understand the modular method we must understand Britain's newest destroyer. we don't need to know a floor-plan or anything, just how it was built. the ship was built in modules. if you were to take the finished ship and cut it vertically into bits then that would be a module. these modules were built all over the country, shipped to the same location where final assembly was done (welding the two halves together and connecting wires) this method is extremely efficient, especially when the scale grows. it allows pieces to be built efficiently in small sizes, and then assembled on the spot. unfortunately this doesn't solve the problem with building the smallest segment.

the segmental method is the least efficient. you build everything in segments. ie, if there is a 5mx5m flat panel of metal you build that and attach it. if a turret has 2 guns, you assemble each gun and strap it on. there is almost no economy of scale, but it is a little better then doing everything from scratch (you're still building the flat panel separate) this method has one advantage in that there is a low overhead (no factory) as such if you are building one ship that doesn't fit in existing facilities this may reduce cost. it is slow and inefficient. but it works.

as you travel down in scale the different methods see different quantities of use. the computers and wires are built in huge factories that produce them in mass using a method similar to the shipyard. these parts are shipped to a single location where the module is built. the module is built using a combination of the shipyard and segmental method. almost everything is built using the shipyard method, however some components must be installed by hand such as the aforementioned computers. the module is completed and sent to another location where it is welded together with other modules. final assembly is done using the segmental method. while the segmental method is mentioned more it is used the leas. it is used when there is no other alternative.

to summarize. it would be really interesting, and help gameplay if we could build "factories". we have factory A that produces computers. factory B which produces steel. these factories could be as small as a single block replicator, or as large as a 10x10 room. the only prerequisite is that it builds parts. the only thing separating a factory from a shipyard is name, and versatility. the shipyard is merely a more flexible factory. a latticework of beams designed to support cranes. we build these because it makes ship construction far more efficient. entire ships can be built inside of this shipyard. it may also pay off, though this is less of a requirement then factories and shipyards, if the shipyard can produce a part of a ship, and then the AI can assemble it using the modular method.

Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 12:39:50 am »
Um... Yes but not big ship pieces. Those will be build by NPC's and Drones. I am talking about stuff a person could carry like armor, weapons, and parts to stuff like Life support, generators, and other assorted pieces.


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Alias72

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 12:51:34 am »
OK then. shuttles do not fit. you cannot carry a shuttle. (actually you can sort of carry a shuttle but the shuttle will move you more then you move the shuttle.) these small 1 block components are all made of smaller components. i don't think we should get too complex, but we should be able to find suitably ambiguous meas of producing these materials. lets use a computer for example.

what does a computer need? well it needs a screen, a keypad, and a processor of some kind. instead of complicating thins, we'll stick with the screen, the processor, and a generic electrical part that we shall call.... the electrical part. but where do we build a computer? well. that we probably build at a futuristic workbench. so we walk up to the bench with these three things and out pops a computer.
OK, but where do we get these parts. the screen is just a crystalline display mounted to some electrical parts. we could simulate this by using an item called chemicals, and an electrical part. the more time our pieces find use the better. what about the processor? well the processor is very complex. but lets simplify this. we use two electrical parts and a chemical.
i have used a lot of chemicals and electric parts, but where do they come from. chemicals are mined, and so should be a level 1 resource. in addition we might be able to refine them into fuel. the electric part however is slightly different. what if we use one conducting metal and one metal. both of these are mined from asteroids and thus need not be broken down.

so you take chemicals, metal, and conducting metal to a workbench, and after a few processes you get a computer. this could be applied to a number of things. it might even be possible to have a method of using different processors to give items different attributes. armor, wires, plumbing, all of these can be constructed at different facilities. it may also be possible to use replicators, though you run into a slight problem where you may be able to replicate fuel faster then you consume it and never have to mine fuel again, or mine an asteroid. there should be infinite supplies of these, but they should be at the trading ports of planets. not aboard your ship at no extra cost.

Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 01:22:57 am »
Computers will probably be blocks themselves, maybe with a few different types like servers, mainframes, and consoles. They will most likely be blocks with slants on one face or something like that. I wouldn't worry about making individual stuff like that.

Beside's it is the future, it is all holographic and touch screen.


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Matz05

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 06:40:29 pm »
That thing on factories sounds great!

I only mentioned the crafting table type of building on my post, but I fully support larger construction machinery.
I should be able, instead of spending my resources on my own personal Death Star, be able to build a construction factory that churns out fighters on demand ( provided components and energy), as well as a more "crafting-table" facility that makes the required components directly from ores.
Quote
Posted By Alaric on 28 Jun 2011 04:54 PM
...it doesn't matter, I making space ships!

Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 08:17:10 pm »
That thing on factories sounds great!

I only mentioned the crafting table type of building on my post, but I fully support larger construction machinery.
I should be able, instead of spending my resources on my own personal Death Star, be able to build a construction factory that churns out fighters on demand ( provided components and energy), as well as a more "crafting-table" facility that makes the required components directly from ores.

Larger constructions I believe will be made by NPC's and Drones.


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Axel

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 09:36:43 pm »
I know this is a bump, but I really didn't think it worth starting a new thread to put my two cents in on this.

When it comes to small item construction, I was pretty happy with crafting and modding in Star Wars: The Old Republic when I played it briefly. Not so much how you crafted, but what you crafted and how you used it. In it there were rare modifiable items that you could learn how to make that would provide a decent set of base stats, these items would have empty component slots that would need to be filled in order for it to function effectively. Weapons would need a crystal, some other form of internal component, and an optional slot for an extra Mod item.

Combined with the above mentioned manufacturing methods (Sciencing resources together), I think something like that is the way to do it when it comes to personal equipment.

Me2005

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012, 11:18:14 am »
... In it there were rare modifiable items that you could learn how to make that would provide a decent set of base stats, these items would have empty component slots that would need to be filled in order for it to function effectively. Weapons would need a crystal, some other form of internal component, and an optional slot for an extra Mod item.

Combined with the above mentioned manufacturing methods (Sciencing resources together), I think something like that is the way to do it when it comes to personal equipment.

I think that this exact thing was suggested in the thread on customizable or modifiable side-arms. I like that system too though; allowing players to take certain items they have and apply them to weapons/tools for some boost or change in capability (red crystal makes it hot, blue makes it cold, green makes it radioactive, etc.).
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

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Jmanndriver

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 04:24:22 am »
I know this is a bump, but I really didn't think it worth starting a new thread to put my two cents in on this.

When it comes to small item construction, I was pretty happy with crafting and modding in Star Wars: The Old Republic when I played it briefly. Not so much how you crafted, but what you crafted and how you used it. In it there were rare modifiable items that you could learn how to make that would provide a decent set of base stats, these items would have empty component slots that would need to be filled in order for it to function effectively. Weapons would need a crystal, some other form of internal component, and an optional slot for an extra Mod item.

Combined with the above mentioned manufacturing methods (Sciencing resources together), I think something like that is the way to do it when it comes to personal equipment.

I remember this game when it came out and I thoroughly enjoyed the crafting as you did. What I believe we can do is have a process where we gather materials, of differing rarities, and then we can "Purify" them to get different grades of whatever they produce. So the rarer the material the higher the chance to get a really high end output while a moderate material will have a very low chance to get a high end output. Then we could have it to where the best available can only be made when using high grade materials.

It would provide a great deal of variability and chance to getting certain materials. If this option does become available I would love for the dev team to put out templates where we can fill in stats and chance rates for materials or other items. It would allow them to pick and choose user inputted ideas quickly and effectively. They could then add these to their existing ones or make them new altogether.


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Axel

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Re: Fabrication Mechanics thread
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 01:56:15 pm »
I like that, but what about mass production? I'd think automation would need to be an option. The obvious upside is not having to hand craft each item, but the downside could be that equipment made is always the median quality level of the materials used. Feeding high quality resources into the factory input would always yield the most likely output, not the best or worst possible.