Author Topic: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel  (Read 12134 times)

Holy Thunder

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Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« on: April 19, 2013, 04:05:51 pm »
As I've mentioned in a few posts elsewhere, my laptop hard drive is toast at the moment so I have to post here using my work computer. Upon which I cannot install BR, so I must salivate as a helpless third party until my hard drive gets fixed. (Which may be a while since I'm currently buying a house)

But I've gone through a lot of the forums and read a lot of the ideas, and the concerns about big ships vs tiny ships and fast ships vs slow ships. And it sounds an awful lot like a game available for iOS I really enjoy, called Battleship Craft.

It runs off of very similar concepts to this, only on a more simple non-space, combat-only perspective. You build your ship however you want, Minecraft-esque, and then add weapons.  Since it's on the ocean, the primary concern is making sure your ship floats. The secondary concern is preserving your engines, since if they take a hit you're pretty dead in the water. Your ship's survivability is variable based on density (how far you are from sinking, right at the start), balance of your ship on the water, your average armor thickness (called "toughness"), and your overall hit points.

I bring this up because a) it's a ridiculously fun game and b) a lot of the design questions people have considered I have encounterred in Battleship craft--and they have a total polygon limit, so there are only so many pieces you can put on your ship. The dimension limitations are countered by making some of those hull pieces much larger, if you have the resources for it.

The aiming system is pretty terrible, so some people make absurdly fast ships that are very difficult to hit--but they take only a few hits to go down. There are truly gargantuan ships that are nigh-on impossible to sink. There are ships that are more than 2km long, but only a few blocks wide, so it's very difficult to hit enough of the ship to make it sink. People have figured out how to make submarines by managing their density and adding propellers to the top of the ship. I fought one ship that was several hundred meters high, and the majority of it was just a few blocks thick. It was almost impossible to hit, but couldn't do much damage to me either.





I bring all of this up because user design concerns are valid, but they also pan out. There will be absurdly fast ships you can barely hit. There will be Borg Cubes that are nothing but armor and guns. And there will be effective counters to all of those things. As long as the physics pan out so that not just one type is favored, which the devs here seem intent on doing, I think we'll all be blown away by some of the stuff that comes out in the final playable game. Some of us will inevitably be annoyed with getting beat down by a guy with no sense of aesthetics. I'm that guy in Battleship craft. But then I took on a guy who built a 3x-scale true-to-detail battleship, who literally rammed me and ripped all the  the big guns off my pathetic invincible raft.  He then blew me away like a pansy nobody--even though he spent more time on aesthetics and I thought I spent more time on total tactical advantage.


I've always wanted to see an "everything matters" kind of ship-building game like this, and I have high hopes for it. In the meantime, those of you with iOS devices, see what you think of Battleship craft.

--Trespassers will be promptly riddled with bullets and other unpleasant projectiles.

--Survivors will treated with apologies, steak dinner, and a VIP tour of our facilities.

Me2005

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 01:06:32 pm »
Definitely looking into Battleship craft, sounds fun. I'm glad that the concerns we posit mostly turn out to be true and to be counterable; I'm hoping that the game is set up such that it sticks to it's physics and not such that some items are arbitrarily given different stats (this gun does 300 damage for 4 tons and 30 MW of energy, while all the other guns do 30 for anything like the same resource cost).

We'll have to wait and see!

edit: Have looked into Battleship Craft; it's a blast. I'm having fun building trimarans and stomping same-level players who haven't used the 'jmsdf' code. I might take a line out of the history books and dump all the small-caliber weapons on my ship right now, the battle is always over before I get within 5 km because I have 3 13-km+ capable weapons that can fire forward. Though I might not, I think I tried removing them in the editor and it only gained me another 5 km/hr (out of the 70-some I get now), and being able to unleash a barrage of something like 10 weapons on any fool who gets in range is always fun.

I'm working on another tri-hull that, without any power plant, is listed as getting 22 km/hr.

BR might want to take a note from them (and Kinetic Void, a similarly component-based star-ship game) with the simple shapes and big blocks; though I don't know how you'd set up interiors for FPS and I have the feeling that would go over about as well as the limited power plant thing did.

The shipyard camera in both games is basically the exact thing I've been hoping BR would adopt for some time now.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:38:54 pm by Me2005 »
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 02:41:15 pm »
A few tips from an old hand:

1) My iPhone 4 playability tanked when they added planes, so I don't know a whole lot about dealing with them. So my knowledge is pre-that. :)

2) Grinding plays a big part in getting your cash. Get to a stage that pays well that you can win with very little effort, and do that over and over and over and over and over again. Before the airplane update, it was the last one-on-one duel--shoot a few times right at the beginning before he had a chance to maneuver, and you could sink him pretty quickly. My fully-devloped boat, the Doom Raft, could sink him in one volley.

The mechanics can't be too far off from that even now. Grind it!

2) The big guns are definitely worth it. The 8x8, $90k guns shoot fewer bullets, but they hit hard enough that it only takes a few shots to cripple an enemy ship. And thankfully, humans suck at maneuvering compared to the AI.  I generally kept a layer of 1x1 guns along stern for rapid-fire at those quick-maeneuver boats, but otherwise little guns aren't really worth it. The 400mm lightweight armor will shrug off most anything but the big guns.

3) Put lightweight armor everywhere. Your resistance to shots is frequently based on your average armor, not your total toughness. There's no reason to have vanilla hull anywhere, if you can help it.

4) Protect your engines. I kept mine fully encased in armor. Also, for whatever reason, more propellers often equals less power. Not sure why this is the case, but I found it to be pretty consistent. You want a gigantic rudder placed directly behind a single propeller, for best results.

5) Aesthetics are optional. My boat became dramatically more powerful when I learned that a double layer of 2x2x2 400mm lightweight blocks could float as much firepower as I could cram on it.

6) When money is no longer an object, you'll find yourself in the VIP league. Battleship Craft organizes ships into leagues based simply on how much money your boat costs. It keeps full-on battleships from doing battle with fishing trawlers and pea shooters. And when you cross that last line into the VIP, it becomes a whole different nasty kind of world--where the problem is not price, but size limitations. You'll find yourself facing premium weapons frequently--don't worry, the guys spamming rocket launchers are generally noobs. The other guys, with ships suddenly 2 and 3 times your size even though you're maxed out on parts--those guys are generally just nasty.

7) If you want to go ahead and build for the VIP's now, buy big armor blocks instead of little ones--I wished a dozen times over I could have traded in those hundreds of small armor blocks. BC doesn't cap you out on size or tonnage, it caps you based on how many points are on your ship. So a ship maxed out on 2x2x2 blocks will be roughly 8 times the size of a ship maxed out on 1x1x1 blocks. Bear this in mind when planning long-term.


---

In case you haven't guessed by now, my paradigm was the Floating Fortress. I could hit nearly 50 knots at full health, but mostly my rig was designed to dish and receive absurd amounts of punishment.  There were others who did this, and did it far better than I. Here's a few other concepts I saw:

The Hydro-foil--These ships were insanely wide, balanced on several pontoons to reduce the drag. Mounted on the impossibly wide beam was a massive array of torpedo launchers. These boats would dash around evading your long-range fire, then dash in and hit you with a few dozen (no exaggeration here) torpedoes at once.  The hydrofoil usually would take damage, but the victim (always me) would be hurt badly enough to make a follow-up shot pretty easily.  To beat these guys, I would turn broadside to them and sit at rest. I would then hold my fire until they were at nearly point-blank, sure-hit range--for the big big guns, this is about 5km, just outside torpedo range. I would give them a full broadside volley, and max-accelerate to avoid the torpedos. A few would still get through, but the damage to the hydrofoil from 12 point-blank biggest-gun shots was more than it could handle.


The speedboat--These guys were very difficult for me to put down, maybe because I was using an iPhone. The aiming system is very difficult to use at range, so these guys were excellent at avoiding fire. Then they would come at you and keep at the stern, or wherever your firepower was least-concentrated to whittle you down. But if you can get just a few good hits in on their engine, you'll win the match in pretty short order.

The longboat--Just like it sounds, they're long, narrow boats with usually 10 or so 8x8 guns in a line, with several smaller guns to boot. I eventually transitioned to this type of boat, because you could circle and strafe with maximum firepower. To sink it, concentrate your fire on just one corner of the boat to capitalize on its relatively low balance value.

The mega-fortress--This was why I transitioned to the longboat, since I didn't have the money to make one as big as theirs. Strafe and pound, preferably from long distance. A well-done mega-fortress is very nearly impossible to take down.

The Ram--A speedboat with lots of balance and frontal armor, these guys charge in under your fire and try to run over you. Basically, if you see them charging, just like with the hydrofoil, hold your fire until they're less than 5km or so away.


The wisp--I've only encountered a few of these, thankfully. They max out their ships at like 2km long, and only a few blocks wide. Generally, whatever you're shooting is difficult to hit, and has enouggh support that these guys are very difficult to sink. The plus side of that is, they can't hurt you very much either--they basically win matches by frustrating opponents into quitting.  To beat them, I try to ram them at a perpendicular angle to flip them over. Ramming them head-on is ill-advised, as you'll probably be the one to flip and sink. Or at least I was, all three times I tried it.

The sub--The submarine is really a failed class. Difficult to build, really cool to see, impossible to hit with your guns, and they can sink you with their torpedos. Install just one depth charge dispenser on your boat, anywhere you like, and run them down. One hit kills with a depth charge. These guys really don't have a place in the VIP.
--Trespassers will be promptly riddled with bullets and other unpleasant projectiles.

--Survivors will treated with apologies, steak dinner, and a VIP tour of our facilities.

Me2005

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 04:45:33 pm »
Yeah, the ipad mini doesn't have any trouble running it except a hang here and there in MP (probably connection related). My current ship took all the duel-battles up to level 7/8 no problem, it had 2 30.5's, 2 30.5+'s, 2 30.5 olds, and like 20 20cm reaccessed pointing every which way as a part of the hull. The gun layout was typical super-stacking, 2 guns to a hull, on a tri-hull where the 20's made up the second layer. The main hull was a regular skelton (why can't they get a real translation?), the sides were shorter and 3 blocks wide.

The nice thing about that one is that it can  bring 6 main guns to bear on any target to the front of me (which is usually where they are, the game isn't set up to make much manuvering important - there are no convoys to protect, few/no islands to avoid, no fleet-subships to get harrassed by), and 4 to either side ;D

I've upgraded it to use a double 40 instead of one of the 30.5's and am working on replacing the light armor with 600 mm; I'll look into large block armor, thanks for the tip.

I'm working on a newer, longer/larger tri-hull. I like that tris don't need ballast. I may upgrade my hull design to include large blocks and design it around the super-heavy triple 46's and quad 36's.

Any idea which of the pre-built ships are worth buying? Are they just the cost of all their parts added up or are they rounded off? If it's cheaper to buy parts by buying one of them, I'm all for it. As is, the Milkasa is 40,000 and just the two main turrets cost 30,000, so I have a hard time imagining that it doesn't more than break even with the other guns, armor, and decoration.

Do you know anything about the 45-5? It sounds awesome.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Thadius Faran

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 09:26:08 pm »
Is it available on the kindle?
If your going to use military force you ought to use overwhelming military force. All war is immoral and if you let that bother you your not a good soldier.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2013, 11:22:31 am »
@Thadius--last I checked it was iOS-only. Sadness. :(


@ Me--I bought the Yamato, but it was only 300k at the time.  I'm not quite sure what you're referencing with 45-5. The 46-cm gun is what you want to aim for long-term, but until you get about 2 or 3 of them you may be disappointed with the performance. With 3 or more, you have a good chance of landing a few 46-cm hits, and the effects will be immediate and gratifying.

in the 4x5 class I like the 40cm gun--fewer shots per volley, but harder hits. Get a few of the 36 cm guns to help you work up to that. I personally skip the 3x3 guns altogether. If you can still get the 30.5cm (old gun) 2x2, those are good guns. The 3x3 is identical, just obviously bigger. And then the 15cm guns along the sides and back of my stern area.

Major design pitfalls to avoid are unarmored curved hulls. Ballast is twice as heavy as standard hull, but it also has no armor value. Curved ship bottoms?  Pretty, but with no performance value whatsoever. These units lower your average armor, which lowers your overall resistance. Just as bad, they eat up valuable points toward your max loadout.

 Armored angled hulls don't lower your average armor, but have a fraction of the overall hit points.What you want are boats as shallow as possible, with every non-prefab block being a lightweight armor--balance and density can be worked out by tweaking the actual layout. If you make your 3 trimeran hulls narrow, a little wide out from each other, and plently long, you'll still have balance.

Also, let me know how the aircraft work out. I'm hopefully no more than a couple of months from a shiny new whatever-Apple-makes-next, hopefully with a much larger screen.  Then I'll probably wear them out too. ;D


***Edit:  If you don't care much about realism, you don't really have to stack the guns. They can fire right into the back of the next one with no ill effect. ;)
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Me2005

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2013, 12:32:19 pm »
I bought the Yamato, but it was only 300k at the time.  I'm not quite sure what you're referencing with 45-5. The 46-cm gun is what you want to aim for long-term, but until you get about 2 or 3 of them you may be disappointed with the performance. With 3 or more, you have a good chance of landing a few 46-cm hits, and the effects will be immediate and gratifying.

I'm not sure what the Yamato costs now, but what I'm looking for is the rough value of its parts. If it comes with 4-46'ers, armor, and smaller guns/decorations, it'll likely pay for itself over a few times at 90K each for the big guns.

The 45-5 might not be in your version; it's called the "Mark 45 5inch gun" and apparently can shoot down aircraft as well as ships with it's high RoF.

Quote
in the 4x5 class I like the 40cm gun--fewer shots per volley, but harder hits. Get a few of the 36 cm guns to help you work up to that. I personally skip the 3x3 guns altogether. If you can still get the 30.5cm (old gun) 2x2, those are good guns. The 3x3 is identical, just obviously bigger. And then the 15cm guns along the sides and back of my stern area.

I didn't realize the old was smaller early on, and so have a few of the bigger ones. Shouldn't matter, deck space is reasonably plentiful.

Quote
Major design pitfalls to avoid are unarmored curved hulls. Ballast is twice as heavy as standard hull, but it also has no armor value. Curved ship bottoms?  Pretty, but with no performance value whatsoever. These units lower your average armor, which lowers your overall resistance. Just as bad, they eat up valuable points toward your max loadout.

This I did not know; I've got a flat-ish bottom, but I'll need to armor it up. I'm thinking I'll do a new design using big blocks and heavy armor.

Quote
Also, let me know how the aircraft work out. I'm hopefully no more than a couple of months from a shiny new whatever-Apple-makes-next, hopefully with a much larger screen.  Then I'll probably wear them out too. ;D

I haven't gotten a ship big enough to mount a runway to, and the basic aircraft cost 50,000 each. Dive bombers/fighters are rare resource only, kinda lame since fighters are the best defense against other planes.

ED: Actually, I'll need to look at the pre-built carriers more closely; if they come with more than 6 planes they'd pay for themselves.

Are Patrol/Torpedo Boats useful? I'm considering building a fast PT boat and seeing how it does, but don't want to waste the credits on torps if they aren't worthwhile.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 12:47:58 pm by Me2005 »
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2013, 02:44:54 pm »
They're definitely worth experimenting with. Your main challenge is that torpedos are slow and short-ranged, so you have to survive closing to around 5km.  Something fast and hard to kill would do the trick probably.

I also double-checked my design and I've actually just built a raft on a single deck of 2x2x2 and it's worked pretty well. Only shortfall has been money, 46' guns aren't cheap.
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Holy Thunder

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2013, 12:36:11 pm »
So I pulled it back up and they did some memory optimization, so I can play again!  Pretty excited.

The planes are nifty, but it takes a lot to be successful quickly. I'm gonna try to get a swarm carrier going so I can farm, but I don't know how it'll work in Multiplayer. :(
--Trespassers will be promptly riddled with bullets and other unpleasant projectiles.

--Survivors will treated with apologies, steak dinner, and a VIP tour of our facilities.

Me2005

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2013, 01:08:20 pm »
So I pulled it back up and they did some memory optimization, so I can play again!  Pretty excited.

The planes are nifty, but it takes a lot to be successful quickly. I'm gonna try to get a swarm carrier going so I can farm, but I don't know how it'll work in Multiplayer. :(

I've been basically ripped apart by planes on MP several times now. The trouble is that I can't get in range before the planes sink me, and I can't put enough AA on my ship to take them down (being only 1-2 AA options, and my not being sure that they auto-fire). Kinda OP IMO, lame that they're supposedly adding jets :\

Do you know if they nerfed the speed? I feel like I've got a pretty fast ship at 60-70 knots, but I keep reading about people who got up over 100. I'm hoping to figure something out, because I'd like to get a PT boat built but if I can't get it up to at least 100 it won't get in range before it's sunk (though currently, my little 3 wide 10-15 long PT with one of the starting guns on it can usually sink the dual level 1/2 ships).

I'm saving up to buy one of the pre-built subs. Is that a good idea? I feel like I'll be able to use it to farm computer matches better than any other ship type.

Did you buy any new ships? Can you tell me what they come with so I can figure out if I'm saving money buying a ship or if I'm equally well off building it from scratch?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 01:19:07 pm by Me2005 »
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Thadius Faran

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 01:48:30 pm »
Holy Thunder try to ask the dev team if they plan to import to the Kindle Fire.
If your going to use military force you ought to use overwhelming military force. All war is immoral and if you let that bother you your not a good soldier.

Me2005

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 02:23:47 pm »
Holy Thunder try to ask the dev team if they plan to import to the Kindle Fire.

No luck there, they're Japanese and their website offers no real way to contact them. I doubt it though, the Kindle Fire is a multimedia tablet and not a full-on tablet computer; it doesn't have the power that an ipod/pad/phone, or most other top-end smart phone/tablet, has. Not worth buying one just for this game, but I'm hoping that they either continue dev'ing or someone else makes a better version. This one has it's quirks.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:25:52 pm by Me2005 »
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

Thadius Faran

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 02:46:35 pm »
I already have a Kindle. Plus the kindle has way better memory capacity and graphical capacity.
If your going to use military force you ought to use overwhelming military force. All war is immoral and if you let that bother you your not a good soldier.

Holy Thunder

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2013, 02:57:14 pm »
It's possible they intend to eventually port to Android, and Kindles can be rooted  to carry Android. But it hasn't happened yet.

Me, we should totally hook up and fight sometime.
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blazingsentinal

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Re: Battleship Craft--A great BR Parallel
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2013, 02:57:59 pm »
just get it on an ipod if you have one.