Author Topic: Self-policing, and then a quick devolution into discussing impracticalities 40k  (Read 12035 times)

kaptnkrunch

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I'd really like to be able to have control to a limited extent (i.e. deletion of posts) of certain threads I've started. e.g. the HDN thread to remove posts which simply aren't relevant to the discussion.

Basically I'm fed up with thadius posting irrelevant one-word messages or lists of ships, then having 2-3 people flame him, and would like to be able to delete posts. Notably the most recent in which he's just put "agreed"

Is this possible within the bounds of the simple machines forums? Clearly with great power would come great responsibility.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 04:44:58 pm by kaptnkrunch »

blazingsentinal

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 01:19:59 pm »
I agree, i had a giant discussion/ flame war on my shipbuilding thread about the design choice of boxy ships that i wouldn't mind deleteing and i can definately see why you'd want to delete thadius' posts and the flame war they caused

Me2005

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 02:04:36 pm »
Part of the problem I have with this kind of thing is that it allows you (or the OP, or anyone) to remove stupidity (or worse, just anything you don't like, which can actually be really useful stuff) from the public record; sometimes I find it useful to refer to something someone has said; I don't have any specifics but I know that whenever the admins come in and crop stuff out it annoys me. I can't imagine how it would be if just anyone could do it.

Perhaps a karma-type system where off-topic/innane posts get hidden, but can be viewed later, would be better for us regular users? I've used a forum where if enough people down vote or flag a post it gets collapsed for everyone. You can see that it was collapsed and you can uncollapse it by clicking it or by changing your user settings to allow viewing of more heavily flagged posts (it's usually displayed in a post as "This content was flagged as offensive. Click here to expand," once clicked, it displays user info and posts as usual, but with the ability to recollapse it in a the header/footer containing the flagged post(s)). It'd be an aggregate, so you (the OP) couldn't just hide everything you disagree with, but enough people flagging the post would hide it.

I'd hesitate to suggest it, but a similar 'mute' setup slapped on specific users by you, that does the same thing as flagging a post but collapses all their posts in a thread/the forum. The problem there is that while you can't see  their stuff, everyone else still can. The forum that I've been on that has that system in place has one easy way to get slapped with a ban/mod action (the mods are really hands-off otherwise), and that's to talk about your personal mute list. The difference between there and here is that they have tens of thousands of active users, while we have a few dozen. Muting eachother could get really obvious really quickly for those who don't mute anybody.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about any specific situation here though, I haven't read the posts mentioned in the OP.

Side note: this new theme doesn't allow spell check through right-click in the reply window, for whatever reason.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

kaptnkrunch

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 02:09:32 pm »
Part of the problem I have with this kind of thing is that it allows you (or the OP, or anyone) to remove stupidity (or worse, just anything you don't like, which can actually be really useful stuff) from the public record; sometimes I find it useful to refer to something someone has said; I don't have any specifics but I know that whenever the admins come in and crop stuff out it annoys me. I can't imagine how it would be if just anyone could do it.

Perhaps a karma-type system where off-topic/innane posts get hidden, but can be viewed later, would be better for us regular users? I've used a forum where if enough people down vote or flag a post it gets collapsed for everyone. You can see that it was collapsed and you can uncollapse it by clicking it or by changing your user settings to allow viewing of more heavily flagged posts (it's usually displayed in a post as "This content was flagged as offensive. Click here to expand," once clicked, it displays user info and posts as usual, but with the ability to recollapse it in a the header/footer containing the flagged post(s)). It'd be an aggregate, so you (the OP) couldn't just hide everything you disagree with, but enough people flagging the post would hide it.

I'd hesitate to suggest it, but a similar 'mute' setup slapped on specific users by you, that does the same thing as flagging a post but collapses all their posts in a thread/the forum. The problem there is that while you can't see  their stuff, everyone else still can. The forum that I've been on that has that system in place has one easy way to get slapped with a ban/mod action (the mods are really hands-off otherwise), and that's to talk about your personal mute list. The difference between there and here is that they have tens of thousands of active users, while we have a few dozen. Muting eachother could get really obvious really quickly for those who don't mute anybody.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about any specific situation here though, I haven't read the posts mentioned in the OP.

Side note: this new theme doesn't allow spell check through right-click in the reply window, for whatever reason.


I agree, as far as options go it's a bit thermonuclear to outright delete posts. A karma style system would be great which greys out and eventually collapses a post. It would be good for giving some feedback to the poster on the level of irritation being induced as well.

Me2005

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 02:23:44 pm »
I agree, as far as options go it's a bit thermonuclear to outright delete posts. A karma style system would be great which greys out and eventually collapses a post. It would be good for giving some feedback to the poster on the level of irritation being induced as well.

I don't know if the system I'm referencing blocks out the post for the user being blocked or not, but it would be best if it did for the reasons you give.



Having reviewed your thread (and 40K lore in general), I find it ludicrous that some of their ships are as large as they are. The gun turrets shown on the largest ship you posted should be in the ~200m range each (and there was like 6 of them!). The way the lore reads stacked up against the sheer size of the ships, those weapons must be really inefficient, and the image of gallery's of slaves treading on giant wheels to power the ship probably isn't far off in terms of output. (Or they're really quite effective, and the ships are made of magical unobtanium. Either way) :o
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

kaptnkrunch

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 02:40:30 pm »
Having reviewed your thread (and 40K lore in general), I find it ludicrous that some of their ships are as large as they are. The gun turrets shown on the largest ship you posted should be in the ~200m range each (and there was like 6 of them!). The way the lore reads stacked up against the sheer size of the ships, those weapons must be really inefficient, and the image of gallery's of slaves treading on giant wheels to power the ship probably isn't far off in terms of output. (Or they're really quite effective, and the ships are made of magical unobtanium. Either way) :o

40k is a weird one, the fluff is pretty contradictory and flip-flops between super tech-advanced and feudal slave-labour. Some books will describe thousands of ratings shovelling coal or the fluff equivalent (promethium resin) into furnaces to power ships ultra advnaced plasma drives. Likewise you'll find pictures of teams of thousands of ratings hauling on ropes to pull a macro cannon (effectively a MAC) into place for reloading. It's a strange mix of utterly illogical stone-age tech and ultra space-agey stuff.

Personally I just like the shape of ships, the gothic grandeur and dark undertones. That's why it's HDN rather than BFG as a faction so it's free to take the bits of 40k which make at least a moderate amount of sense and leave behind the thousands of people shovelling coal inside a space-ship... (I mean, that doesn't even begin to make sense on any level except trying to make a 19th century ironclad spaceship equivalent, except 2km long?)

The ships tend to pretty ridiculous in scale, particularly in crew numbers. They generally rely on void-shields to absorb most of the beating, I think it's more of  a case of shields being very strong rather than underpowered weapons. Whenever the weapons get used on planets they're sort of 1-hit city obliterators.

They also spend alot of time missing each other because AI isn't used by anyone in the 40k universe, it just seems to be a universal moratorium (for fluff reasons more than anything else I think) but nominally because there were a series of battles in the long-gone past ages in which various civilisations produced AI/robots who then tried to kill their masters. Therefore all computers must have biological components - thus servitors and cogitators (which actually have brains in them as far as I can figure out).


Niwantaw

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 02:53:21 pm »
Tau love their AIs everywhere. But no one takes Tau seriously in space.
"God damnit why does everything have to be in sweedish? I don't understand shit"-Davee

<Strait_Raider> "The Big 4 could be equipped with a Bren gun or a 3 inch mortar..."
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     Put together.
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Erebus

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 03:46:28 pm »
Slaves being used to move shells into breaches is actually realistic...Not in relation to "slaves" of course, but regarding "manual labor" to reload a cannon.
In the 70s the soviets introduces autoloaders into their tanks. They basically sucked in comparison to humans shoving the shells in by hand, and even thirty years later every tank since then uses manual loading.

And now lets look back at WH40K. You need to put A into B (shells into the cannon, or fuel into a furnace). Machines in WH40K are rare and   need extensive repairs if they fail. Slaves however are numberless. So why dont let slaves shovel the fuel into the engines? As I said its not guaranteed a hydraulic machine would be quicker.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:48:09 pm by Erebus »

Me2005

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 04:32:18 pm »
Slaves being used to move shells into breaches is actually realistic...Not in relation to "slaves" of course, but regarding "manual labor" to reload a cannon.
In the 70s the soviets introduces autoloaders into their tanks. They basically sucked in comparison to humans shoving the shells in by hand, and even thirty years later every tank since then uses manual loading.

And now lets look back at WH40K. You need to put A into B (shells into the cannon, or fuel into a furnace). Machines in WH40K are rare and   need extensive repairs if they fail. Slaves however are numberless. So why dont let slaves shovel the fuel into the engines? As I said its not guaranteed a hydraulic machine would be quicker.

That depends on the scale; well-trained US tankers are as fast as or faster than modern tank-shell autoloaders short term (longer than an engagement should last). Long term, they're not going to be able to keep that up, and on anything larger it's no longer efficient (loading battleship shells by hand probably wouldn't beat an autoloader).

However, the lack of machines of every kind in the universe's setting would account for that. It's definitely got an interesting perspective.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.

kaptnkrunch

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 04:44:18 pm »
This is kind of what I'm referring to:
Spoiler

Or this sort of thing:
Spoiler

Weird mix of:
-Super sophisticated giant death cannon with hypervelocity rounds, mass-acceleration, inertial dampeners etc.
-Then a fanatical priest in a gothic pulpit shouting at or whipping thousands of minions hauling on cables to move a giant robo-arm around.

Sense. this makes none.

But it is entertaining!

HDN ships I build are unlikely to have macro-cannon type weaponry. unless you're trying to hit stationary objects or at perilously close range and moving relatively slowly relative to each other I just cannot see how you'd ever hit anything lol

Another good one, of a lance battery
Spoiler
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 04:51:44 pm by kaptnkrunch »

Alaric

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Re: Self-policing
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 04:50:14 pm »
>:(  Topic starts off about self-policing -> devolves into discussion about 40K lore...



The topic-OP-policing functionality you request is indeed within the realm of SMF's permission system. There is also a built-in karma system but that is more for measuring popularity than hiding what is unpopular; a more refined system of the type which has been suggested would have to be implemented with a forum plugin. One alternative which can already be used is the Ignore feature: if you go to Profile > Modify Profile > Buddies/Ignore List you can automatically hide (behind a post-spoiler, I believe) anyone's posts from displaying to you forumwide.

EDIT: I've been informed that the Ignore functionality is less than useful on the new dark theme. Rag on Aaron for that...

As Me2005 said, our biggest concern with implementing such a policy would be the level of censor power an OP would have over his/her topic. However, within certain sections of the forum where topics are more likely to be personalized to the OP and general discussion isn't expected, it may be worth considering enabling such permissions within those boards alone. I'll look in to how fine-grained we can make the board permissions and for some possible plugins to the requested effect.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:56:25 pm by Alaric »
Quote
<Czorio> The bittersweet embrace of the Alaric is the only embrace I'll ever know.
<Gabriel> Because Alaric robbed your pleasure...
<Aaron> I feel dirty. Alaric, pls hold me.
<Terah> I don't guess when it comes to you Alaric, I just assume you are always watching...

kaptnkrunch

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>:(  Topic starts off about self-policing -> devolves into discussion about 40K lore...

This is exactly the problem!

I haven't got a problem with 'Offtopic' per-se. It's more aggressively/ pointless offtopicality, in this case it was an interesting tangent/divergence.

Clearly this is where the issue lies in what is termed 'interesting'. Which is why a karma system adds an element of democracy to proceedings. Even just an popularity counter might be useful.


Alaric

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...in this case it was an interesting tangent/divergence.

How can this not already be accomplished by creating a new thread and crosslinking? Clearly if a divergent topic seems worth discussing it merits its own thread to keep that new discussion orderly and relevant. A good number of new people go into threads after reading the title - and hopefully the OP - and expecting a discussion about that. If the topic has "moved on," what is the point of that thread any more? Case in point, this very thread: my response is very jarring (daresay out of place) when taken in its immediate context (i.e. 40K stuff), but is very relevant to the issue at hand. Would you rather I have not answered your plea at all, because the direction of discussion has changed?

We appreciate the feedback but from our experience it offers a more consistent reading experience if we can keep things somewhat organized. Do note that staying on topic is also a part of the forum rules, so simply adding a popularity counter would not necessarily allow for off-topic tangents - it would require amending the rules and expectations of the forum as a whole.

Edited to add:
I haven't got a problem with 'Offtopic' per-se.

But we do. For the reasons I laid out above, we have come to the determination when laying out the rules that it would be more enjoyable in aggregate if the forum were expected to keep some semblance of order. If "some" level of off-topic were permitted we'd have to either define the line where it would not be or allow for "democracy" to determine - but the latter (especially on the Internet) often ends up being an easily manipulated system of mob rule. We don't want that here.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:30:34 pm by Alaric »
Quote
<Czorio> The bittersweet embrace of the Alaric is the only embrace I'll ever know.
<Gabriel> Because Alaric robbed your pleasure...
<Aaron> I feel dirty. Alaric, pls hold me.
<Terah> I don't guess when it comes to you Alaric, I just assume you are always watching...

Me2005

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...in this case it was an interesting tangent/divergence.

How can this not already be accomplished by creating a new thread and crosslinking? Clearly if a divergent topic seems worth discussing it merits its own thread to keep that new discussion orderly and relevant.

In this case (as the off-topiccer), I had no real way of knowing if the off-topic stuff I posted would be interesting or not, so I had no way to know to cross link it. In this exact case, you splitting the 40K stuff off and putting it somewhere else with a note letting us know where would be a fine solution, but not one that we could do anything about without near-mod powers. Sometimes, the information is still somewhat relevant to the topic at hand and splitting it off isn't warranted, which is where I'd rather leave the situation to mod discretion and hope that it not get culled. In the OP-case, the information was possibly relevant, but not wanted, which is the situation that would be best solved with a post-hiding karma system.

Quote
We appreciate the feedback but from our experience it offers a more consistent reading experience if we can keep things somewhat organized. Do note that staying on topic is also a part of the forum rules, so simply adding a popularity counter would not necessarily allow for off-topic tangents - it would require amending the rules and expectations of the forum as a whole.

Since this has been an ongoing battle (members going off-topic, mods coming in and cutting the topic up/shutting it down, forum activity coming to a standstill until another interesting topic comes up or there is an update), perhaps it would be worth revisiting the strictness of that particular rule and the ways of mitigating the unwanted effects (difficult to parse forum topics). Maybe we need to add tags too, so the OP and users can tag a topic with it's range of discussion, or maybe bookmarks of some sort should be implemented for jumping around inside of a topic. Maybe sections can be flagged for moving to a new topic similarly to the karma system (enough off-topic flags and the thing gets moved automatically). Or possibly sub-topics could be created, and those sub-topics' headings be viewed as sub-headings under the main topic in the forum title (I've seen something similar on a forum without quote support - people would change their post-title to reflect what their response was geared at).

Part of the problem (for me, anyway) is that alot of the stuff I'll write isn't strictly off-topic (in this case, directly referencing the OP's problem topic), but that it is a separate discussion. As I mentioned earlier, bringing it up elsewhere wouldn't make any sense (I don't necessarily have the attention of the OP in a new topic), and PM's don't make sense, since I'm fine with the community weighing in on the discussion. So (for now) it's easier to go off topic inside of a thread; though I'd use a sub-thread, tag, or self-flag off-topic posts if those options were readily available.

Quote
...we have come to the determination when laying out the rules that it would be more enjoyable in aggregate if the forum were expected to keep some semblance of order.

Strictly as a compilation of information, I'd agree. However, that isn't how forums work; people come to them to discuss. We get posts weekly about a feature that immediately gets responded to with some variation of "already planned." The problem is that the information those people are looking for isn't readily available for them to peruse, and there's little or no Dev acknowledgment of what is and is not really planned. There should be a separate compilation of information, readily available, of all the important bits - and that should be curated for off topic stuff like crazy. For the forums part, adding tags to posts/threads, hiding obnoxious users/comments/posts, and sub-threading could make it so that 'off-topic' comments are allowed, but don't clutter up the main topic and ease search-ability/visibility of important topics.
But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand. You follow the path, fitting into an infinite pattern. Yours to manipulate, to create and rebuild.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.