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User Creations => Roleplay => Topic started by: Hufer on April 23, 2013, 05:15:54 pm

Title: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on April 23, 2013, 05:15:54 pm
Alaric edit: merged in meta material from main thread (http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=1872.0). Due to the way SMF arranges post order, Me2005's OP for this thread was bumped down. Apologies to Hufer; I will quote the prior OP here:

Use this to make comments and ask questions about the goings on in the Galactic War (http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=1872.0) thread. None of it should be RP stuff, that belongs in the RP thread (http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=1889.0).

Players can directly communicate/collaborate here as long as it's OOC. I'll try to read through this thread consistently. If you have an idea for a something, post a general layout here and I'll either reply or take it to PM's.

List of Nations
In no particular order:

Thadius Faran:
Faction name: S.D.I
Home System: Caldera Mar
Color: Orange
Symbol: Crosshair
Rank: Leader
Special Technology: Advanced Engines - FTL 2 and some fleet modifiers

Hufer:
Faction Name: Storm's Reach Coalition (SRC)
Home System: Perseverance Mobile Station
Color: Blue
Symbol: Phoenix rising
Rank: Fleet Admiral
Your special tech: Mobile systems
Position: Upper Left

Komrade:
Faction Name: Interstellar Socialist Organization I.S.O.
Home System name: San Salvacion
Color: Red
Symbol: Raised Fist
Rank: PDF Commander (Proletariat Defense Fleet)
Special Technology: Guerrilla Warfare: small fleets (FS<5) may remain off the map (but still kept track of) in friendly/neutral territory
Position: Lower Left

The Error:
Faction Name: Free Revolutionary Associates of Krull FRAK
Home System: Krull
Color: Pink
Symbol: A pair of downward-swept wings
Rank: High Commander
Special Tech: Emission scrambler: FTL retreat cannot be tracked
Position: Right Center Top

Holy Thunder:
Faction Name: Valencian Empire VE
Home System Name: Valencia
Color: Navy blue
Rank: High Executor
Symbol:  Thunderbolt
Special Tech: Nanite Repair - advanced repair, ship + industry modifiers
Position: Right Top

Axis48:
Vassal of SRC:
Vassal Name: The Pale Bulwark TPB
Home System Name: Toriban Jump Station
Color: Blue, Vassal of SRC
Rank: Fleet Captain
Symbol: Pheonix
Special Tech: 25% bonus to home-territory defense
Position: Left Top, adj. to SRC

Hufer's text below:


It sound absolutely awesome and a good way to pass the time while imagining we're using our Blockade Runner Creations. With some fair and un-biased mediation it wouldn't even devolve into a flame war of "my ubership beats your ubership any day of the week."

How would you handle factions without any planets or home systems? Such as factions like mine who just roam and gather resources from sectors while having a main flotilla as our home?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Xavierman117 on April 23, 2013, 07:18:49 pm
Hmm, not Bad. I have to go somewhere, But when I Get Back i'll have a looksie and a thinksie about this.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Rohen on April 24, 2013, 08:49:17 am
So if i get this right everyone is supposed to play an independend faction (or subfaction) that migh ally itself with others, or is it possible to play as one faction that get as many moves/actions as it has members?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on April 24, 2013, 01:00:16 pm
So if i get this right everyone is supposed to play an independend faction (or subfaction) that migh ally itself with others, or is it possible to play as one faction that get as many moves/actions as it has members?

Everyone is independent, but free to ally/meta game however they choose. If you choose the same name for your faction as someone else, I'll get confused, so perhaps pick a subdivision or semi-independant arm if you want to remain aligned with that faction (Ex.: HDN might have a Space Marine fleet; or a 7th Arm of Great Justice, or whatever). You'll need your own distinct color, and I can run out of those. In fact, OP updated with available colors.

I don't really want to tell you how you should run your show, but~

What about creating Sub-Factions with lesser power underneath the main factions (same colour) as vassals of sorts? They would still be able to ally with whoever they wanted (change colours and adopt a new liege) but might add diversity and simulated faction size into the game's mix.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on April 25, 2013, 04:42:52 pm
I would love to join!  Info to follow.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: blazingsentinal on April 26, 2013, 12:58:27 pm
What are the black white and gray colours reserved for?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on April 29, 2013, 02:21:36 pm
Use this to make comments and ask questions about the goings on in the Galactic War (http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=1872.0) thread. None of it should be RP stuff, that belongs in the RP thread (http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/index.php?topic=1889.0).

Players can directly communicate/collaborate here as long as it's OOC. I'll try to read through this thread consistently. If you have an idea for a something, post a general layout here and I'll either reply or take it to PM's.

List of Nations
In no particular order:

Thadius Faran:
Faction name: S.D.I
Home System: Caldera Mar
Color: Orange
Symbol: Crosshair
Rank: Leader
Special Technology: Advanced Engines - FTL 2 and some fleet modifiers

Hufer:
Faction Name: Storm's Reach Coalition (SRC)
Home System: Perseverance Mobile Station
Color: Blue
Symbol: Phoenix rising
Rank: Fleet Admiral
Your special tech: Mobile systems
Position: Upper Left

Komrade:
Faction Name: Interstellar Socialist Organization I.S.O.
Home System name: San Salvacion
Color: Red
Symbol: Raised Fist
Rank: PDF Commander (Proletariat Defense Fleet)
Special Technology: Guerrilla Warfare: small fleets (FS<5) may remain off the map (but still kept track of) in friendly/neutral territory
Position: Lower Left

The Error:
Faction Name: Free Revolutionary Associates of Krull FRAK
Home System: Krull
Color: Pink
Symbol: A pair of downward-swept wings
Rank: High Commander
Special Tech: Emission scrambler: FTL retreat cannot be tracked
Position: Right Center Top

Holy Thunder:
Faction Name: Valencian Empire VE
Home System Name: Valencia
Color: Navy blue
Rank: High Executor
Symbol:  Thunderbolt
Special Tech: Nanite Repair - advanced repair, ship + industry modifiers
Position: Right Top

Axis48:
Vassal of SRC:
Vassal Name: The Pale Bulwark TPB
Home System Name: Toriban Jump Station
Color: Blue, Vassal of SRC
Rank: Fleet Captain
Symbol: Pheonix
Special Tech: 25% bonus to home-territory defense
Position: Left Top, adj. to SRC
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on April 29, 2013, 03:29:25 pm
Question regarding my "FTL 2" research. I had envisioned this as kind of an "instant recall" to my planets via the special fleet support ship,  or from the planets to the fleet support ship, which would carry a "portable" wormhole device. 

1) Can it work like this, or would that require additional research points?

2) How many research points would that take?

3) Would it be easier / more fair to simply treat it as a 2-hex FTL instead of 1-hex FTL?  If so this is totally cool. I just wanted to clarify before I did any RP with it.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on April 29, 2013, 03:58:14 pm
Question regarding my "FTL 2" research. I had envisioned this as kind of an "instant recall" to my planets via the special fleet support ship,  or from the planets to the fleet support ship, which would carry a "portable" wormhole device. 

1) Can it work like this, or would that require additional research points?

2) How many research points would that take?

3) Would it be easier / more fair to simply treat it as a 2-hex FTL instead of 1-hex FTL?  If so this is totally cool. I just wanted to clarify before I did any RP with it.

Ah, I had assumed you wanted instant travel to anywhere, which wouldn't have been fair at all. If you want it to be fleet-supported, I'm all for that; I'll let you decide how you want to deal with it though: trade your current special tech for it, or continue researching for a total of 12 points instead of 4 (if you trade your special tech, you'll keep researching FTL 2).

Both of those options will still have a range limit, but it'll be further than your current FTL level (I'm thinking 4x). The fleet won't be able to be in combat/hostile territory when recalling friendlies. Friendlies will need to be in your territory or heading to your territory. Since I don't keep track of what ship is where (Just where there are ships), I'll let any fleet be a support ship. I'll also require both territories to have fleets in them if it's within/to your boundaries.

This would mean that your territory won't need to be connected, but can be up to 4x your FTL level apart, so long as you have fleets within each system. The destruction of a fleet in a separated system would result in that system being isolated and you loosing any benefit it gave you.

Note for everybody:
Your systems being separated from your home-world further than your capability to reach them from your territory in 1 turn will result in their being isolated and you loosing their benefit, unless they're on a trade route as laid out in the rules.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on April 29, 2013, 04:48:36 pm
I'll research it for 12 points then.  And I'm assuming at normal FTL 1 we can move one hex  per action point for a total of 4 hexes per turn, is that correct?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on April 29, 2013, 05:19:57 pm
FTL 1 means each fleet moves a max of 1 hex, regardless of actions spent on that fleet. You could move 4 fleets to 4 separate hexes for 4 actions, but they'd be adjacent to the starting hex and you'd need 4 fleets to move (or to split the fleets down to partial fleets).
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on April 30, 2013, 06:15:52 am
So my special tech lets me move two Hexes?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on April 30, 2013, 11:52:38 am
So my special tech lets me move two Hexes?

Yep, I gave you FTL 2 right off the bat (a full round's action for anyone else to achieve; as you can see you scouted 2 systems while everyone else only did 1) and some special modifiers to your ships. Your fleets are something like 1.5x as powerful as a normal fleet, which is the best fleet modifier anyone has right now. Be vigilant though, you can loose that edge if you don't develop your tech.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on April 30, 2013, 12:45:00 pm
Handy to know. What's my fleet modifier?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on April 30, 2013, 01:39:13 pm
Handy to know. What's my fleet modifier?

Yours is the next highest, 1.2ish. Your nanites translated to repair/scavenge and industry stuff, so you're the only one with planet modifiers, which I think are 1.3ish.

Automatic Post Merge: May 02, 2013, 12:49:14 pm
So dead?

Not dead, waiting for actions. I'll speed up the rate of actions if you guys can handle it, but so far I've only gotten 4/6 of your responses. If a couple of you have trouble posting regularly (only on weekends, for example), feel free to PM me or post multiple turns worth of actions. Next round may be shorter, I'd like it to update twice a week to keep interest high.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 02, 2013, 10:43:14 am
So dead?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on May 03, 2013, 08:38:55 am
Good to see another post in the RP threat. Thought I was alone there for a bit.  :o
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 03, 2013, 01:18:49 pm
LOL @ new thread order, thanks for cleaning up Aleric  ;D

Quote
We should work on a schedule, like one due Wed another due Friday.  Or something.

Schedule will be something like actions due monday/wed-thurs. That'll give you guys the weekend to post. I'll try to keep up, but if they're all in in time, I should have the map up before the next actions are due.

"By (whatever day)" would mean that your actions are posted early enough on the day of that they're there before I check. Preferably, you'll have your post in before the day they're due. I'll give some leeway in actions (as I've said, you can give me multiple actions if you expect to miss a deadline), but I will update the map without you and you may be drawing my wrath by frequently posting late (which would mean more bad stuff happening to you ;D).

I've decided though that if someone hasn't posted, I will use all of their actions toward whatever research they have ongoing. If they don't have any research going on, they'll likely loose the actions.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Komrade on May 03, 2013, 11:26:49 pm
That seems fair and reasonable.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Axis48 on May 07, 2013, 01:17:34 am
So, I was looking at the way fleet combat is played out, and while it is relatively simple, it is pretty paper thin, biggest fleet size always wins. But there are so many factors in a space battle that just a flat fleet doesn't account for. Many times a smaller force has prevailed with sheer luck or good planning, and I think our little game can reflect that.

What I propose is simple, instead of having the highest number win, we use what we already do for everything else, a d6. Whenever a fleet engages another fleet or a planet you take the fleet score or system score and roll that many dice(Or in a systems case twice that many dice.). For example:

A 4 fleet and a 6 fleet meet in battle, the 4 fleet rolls and gets 3, 5, 1, 3 which totals out to 12. The 6 fleet rolls and gets a 6, 5, 1, 3, 4, 2 which totals out to 21, so the 6 fleet wins and the 4 fleet suffers losses.

In another case with the same two fleets, the 4 fleet rolls 4, 5, 6, 4 totalling out to 19. The 6 fleet rolls and gets 2, 3, 1, 1, 4, 5 totalling out to 16, in this case the the 4 fleet wins and the 6 fleet suffers losses.

This would give some chance and danger in the galaxy, even to super strong fleet sizes, because there is a chance they can get unlucky, so players will be more tactical and not just have one super crazy fleet going around that is undefeatable strictly because its size.

This offers lots of new options for technology too. Maybe a 'focused laser' research makes damage More reliable, so that whenever you roll a 1 or a 6 it is bumped to a 2 or a 5 respectively! This also allows for modifiers, does a ship have a certain type of armor? Maybe it reduces an enemies dice score by 2 points, or do they have missile tracking, making the losses that you produce on a victory much more significant?

All and all I think we can add some depth, and maybe change some rules, thoughts?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 07, 2013, 12:13:46 pm
All and all I think we can add some depth, and maybe change some rules, thoughts?

That is a good idea; I had considered it but wasn't sure how well it'd work - I don't want to give a massive advantage to someone because of a good/bad roll (if I used straight d6's, you could have 6x your fleet strength while the opponent has only 1x!). Maybe I'll look into a more minor roll & receive +.5/-.5 or +d6 to the fleet strength on combat. Rolling a bucket of dice, besides being something I don't want to do, doesn't really affect the result in theory anyway - it should average a 3.5 result. It hasn't happened yet, so I don't feel bad modifying it, but I'd feel better about allowing a tech that has a random effect like that and leaving the current engagement rules as is.

That said though, it's not as straight forward as the map and fleet strength show. Technology is coming into play, and players who research ship-related technologies have modifiers applied to their fleet strength (same with systems). I don't think there's one of you who doesn't have any modifier to their ships, and that'll change even more as the game progresses. So when things actually start shaking down, you'll probably be surprised by the result.

I should mention my planet-warfare setup while we're on the topic of combat - Currently, planets get an advantage fighting ships, so it's not SS vs FS and see who wins; it's more like SS x2 vs FS and see who wins. The reasoning is twofold: First, and most important, system strength doesn't (always) take one turn to upgrade, while fleets do. Second, the fleets are represented as collections of ships plying the stars and attacking each other, but they're not optimized for planetary conquest, especially when the planets involved could have populations in the billions and the systems involved have multiple planets, stations, moons, shipyards, and other objects present. Destroying all that takes quite a bit of resources, and to conquer it you'd need more fleet strength.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 08, 2013, 09:54:42 am
I believe one more day before rounds up. Who hasnt posted yet?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 08, 2013, 11:41:39 am
I believe one more day before rounds up. Who hasnt posted yet?

Quote
Waiting on Komrade, The Error, and Jackson for actions.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on May 08, 2013, 11:40:07 pm
I got it! I posted it at 11:30 pm on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on May 09, 2013, 03:47:27 pm
@Thadius--FS = Fleet Strength.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on May 09, 2013, 04:10:38 pm
Do fleets repair per turn normally or do actions need to be spent into repairing them? A repair rate of 10%/turn would sound fair or 1 action = 2 repaired strength but I wouldn't think 1 action = 1 repair would make sense as it would be just as easy to make new ships as it would be to patch holes in old ones by that rule.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 09, 2013, 04:43:21 pm
Do fleets repair per turn normally or do actions need to be spent into repairing them? A repair rate of 10%/turn would sound fair or 1 action = 2 repaired strength but I wouldn't think 1 action = 1 repair would make sense as it would be just as easy to make new ships as it would be to patch holes in old ones by that rule.

Hmm.... How to best explain this...

The mechanical intent is that 1 FS = 1 fleet/ship/whatever, and doesn't need repairs; 1 unmodified player fleet vs. 1 alien fleet results in 0 fleets remaining in the system. It's supposed to be an arbitrary unit of strength, and losses aren't 'repaired' as such.

Depending on how you choose to RP, your FS might represent 1 ship, one combat group, one armada, or a single weapon-turret on one of your fighters. It'd make sense from an RP perspective to have FS repair at some rate if you had higher FS-cost ships, but mechanically, any damage to an individual point of FS is ignored. (you have 2 FS in the above battle; one of them is lost completely, but the other, thematically/in RP, might have sustained damage. This is replaced from the destroyed FS's survivors, repaired  before the next turn, or whatever.)

So in your specific situation, it'd make sense for you to repair your FS 12-ship. However, mechanically, that doesn't happen automatically, since I could have an entire fleet that is worth only 1 FS (Komrade does, or at least, he hasn't said that there are individual ships worth more than 1 FS each IIRC). I spent an action building the fleet, and if that fleet is lost in combat, I spend another action building a new one; I don't get to repair it for free. And as I've actually already given you a healthy boost to your final FS, I don't think I feel good about bending the rule further in this case.

Verdict: It'll continue to cost 1 AP per FS you construct.

Technology research may allow that to change; however, even Holy Thunder (who has repair as a special ability) needs to pay AP to build/rebuild fleets; his ability to repair is abstracted in my mechanics as his fleets & planets being more resilient (getting a modifier).

I suppose the tech that would do it would be something like the "Allied War Machine" in Company of Heroes - your total fleet strength is automatically rebuilt at your base at some rate when you loose it. That's the only way I could keep track of such a thing, by logging the peak strength and keeping it at that no matter what. That'd be more of a 'displace' mechanic like Diplomacy though, and would probably be best balanced by requiring you guys to have the systems to support your FS (each system supports some number of FS, if you loose a system you'll loose the extra). As this game is already under way with the simpler "#FS = #Damage to enemy FS mechanic," I don't think I should change the combat mechanic, but you're free to discuss researching the technology to keep FS high. It'd probably be costly (no less than 12 AP to research) and might be a permanent drain (-1AP/20 FS or something, but some portion of fleets lost are built at home base).

Sorry if that got lengthy, I'm trying to explain it in as many ways possible to cover possible misinterpretations.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 09, 2013, 05:30:00 pm
Well I suppose the SDI scout fleet has an fs of 5 The patrol fleet has one of 8
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on May 09, 2013, 08:56:29 pm
Regarding my weapons research into utilizing Energy Transfer Beams, the result i had in mind is basically my ships can transfer energy from target (enemy) ship to boost our own power.
How would this effect combat for me?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 10, 2013, 12:52:35 pm
Regarding my weapons research into utilizing Energy Transfer Beams, the result i had in mind is basically my ships can transfer energy from target (enemy) ship to boost our own power.
How would this effect combat for me?

It'll probably just be a ship-weapon modifier. 4-turn research time, you can upgrade it basically as much as you want.

Main Rules Post updated:
(Section 2 - AP)
Quote
-2C) Additional AP can be earned
--2C.1) Colonizing new systems
--2C.2) Upgrading existing systems
--2C.3) Upgrading system-level or production-related tech
-2D) Additional AP can be lost
--2D.1) Having fewer systems than the other players
--2D.2) Having lower quality systems than the other players
--2D.3) Loosing the technology-race

Basically, keep developing, expanding, and building and you'll keep your AP level up. Stop doing that and it'll go down. Simple (or not  ;D) as that.

To expand on that, if you have more AP than everyone else, and they catch up to you in technology, system strength, or other factors; you may loose your extra AP. Keep researching and expanding to keep the AP advantage you have, since that's what having more than 4 represents. For those with less, develop more and once you get close I'll upgrade you to full-statehood. Full states won't ever have less than 4 to spend, regardless of how backwards they become.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on May 18, 2013, 01:16:21 pm
Me, you still there with us?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on May 18, 2013, 04:37:41 pm
Me, you still there with us?
He said that he wouldn't be able to update it on thursday but he said that he would be able to update it on monday.

Automatic Post Merge: May 18, 2013, 04:37:59 pm
For just this one time.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 21, 2013, 11:29:46 am
Yep, still here, just even busier than expected. Full update should come today, if it doesn't, as long as you're doing diceless upgrades/building/developing you'll be fine to post new actions for Thursday.


Edit: Knock knock, anyone home? Actions are due tomorrow and only axis has posted :\
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on May 24, 2013, 09:59:06 am
@Thadius Once again, please try to keep questions to the Meta Thread.

No, people aren't getting two turns, Me2005 went away for a week and allowed us to post multiple actions as he'd miss the monday turn. My personal schedule caused me to miss this Thursday's turn so I stated that the turn was "Delayed."

Automatic Post Merge: May 24, 2013, 10:00:56 am
Yep, still here, just even busier than expected. Full update should come today, if it doesn't, as long as you're doing diceless upgrades/building/developing you'll be fine to post new actions for Thursday.


Edit: Knock knock, anyone home? Actions are due tomorrow and only axis has posted :\

The hop between tuesday information posting and thursday deadline was a little much despite the amount of time between them, I'd give it a bit for people to get their actions in or possibly PM the offending parties after another day or two.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 28, 2013, 11:49:12 am
And another messed up week due to the Memorial Day weekend. Sorry about that; I'll continue to be lenient with deadlines. Actions due Thursday or 2x by Monday. I'll try to update both days regardless.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 28, 2013, 11:51:44 am
Waiting for results of last round and map update.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on May 28, 2013, 11:50:29 pm
Why is all information pertaining to Strait Raider beyond his current reasearch unknown?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 29, 2013, 08:37:49 am
I don't think he really joined the game. He did not provide any information on his system or a location
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 30, 2013, 03:31:03 pm
Why is all information pertaining to Strait Raider beyond his current reasearch unknown?

I put that up there half as a joke. If he wants in, he didn't give any information about how he's in other than researching 'hufflepuff,' which I've determined to be a very high-level item. A fantastical space-faring race would be welcomed though (one that used wizzard-power to ply the stars).
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 31, 2013, 05:15:22 am
I'm pretty sure hes researching to make the pokemon Hufflepuff
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on May 31, 2013, 11:45:22 am
I'm pretty sure hes researching to make the pokemon Hufflepuff

Well, and here the first thing that came up on my google search was the wizardry school. I'd need to figure out the cost for a pokemon version and get clarification from Strait.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on May 31, 2013, 12:11:39 pm
Hufflepuff is actually a house in hogwarts. But yeah that would take a long time.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on May 31, 2013, 06:12:59 pm
The only hufflepuff I know about is the Hogwarts Hufflepuff.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on June 01, 2013, 01:57:07 am
Huff'n'Puff, boss from Paper Mario.

THE FEELS

THE NOSTALGIC FEELS

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100925130054/mario/images/1/14/HuffNPuff.jpg)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 03, 2013, 05:01:39 pm
So, I've redrawn my spreadsheet, and I'm wondering if I'd meet resistance to switching to it over the current one. It's easier for me to use (and for me to use to report back to you), the rules for getting AP make more sense and are less likely to make you loose AP when other players develop (should curb kingmaker situations, which are allowed in the current set). The trick? It adds upkeep for large fleets.

Under the new setup, this is the AP everyone would get:

Hufer                          3.7 <- Has a huge fleet
Axis48                        3.4
Komrade                    5.8
Holy Thunder             5.7
Tadius Faran              5.4
The Error                   5.7
Commander Jackson  7.0

To go into some more detail; it allows for trade improvements and limits the effect of non-AP-producing tech on your AP value (right now I think something totally random actually gives you more AP, just like industrial upgrades). It also makes systems way easier to figure out - 1 AP/level and there's no level limit. I'll reimburse or use all the AP you've spent upgrading systems if you accept the upgrade.

On my end, it makes everything a simple value (Each upgrade is just +1 to that tech, which corresponds to your level in that tech) rather than the decimal value per level based on research trees that it is now; and it combines all of your AP bonuses (which none of you have used) into one place. It is also nice that you shouldn't significantly drop AP unless you build a huge fleet or loose all your planets or something - systems have less effect than they did. Wondering what to do with the decimals? I'll probably round to nearest (everyone has 6 but Hufer and Axis who have 4 each).

If it'd make you feel better, I'll drop the overhead costs, but that doesn't do much except for Hufer (UK 1.63) and Commander Jackson (UK .88), the two highest upkeep holders. Frankly, I like the upkeep - it deters you guys from building up huge FS stores until you've got a better system base.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Axis48 on June 03, 2013, 05:53:26 pm
So, these new AP values are set for all turns going forward?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 03, 2013, 06:22:26 pm
So, these new AP values are set for all turns going forward?

They can be, yes. They include your -2 for being a vassal as well I believe.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on June 05, 2013, 05:34:56 pm
Question on Fleet Recall--you just posted in the Galactic War thread that my Fleet Recall is only 2x FTL, only while unengaged. But I invested 12 points in that, and with that I could have just gotten to FTL3 or FTL4 without the "friendly territory" or "headed toward friendly territory" caveat.  When I invested, I was under the impression this was 4x my current FTL technology, with those caveats that I cannot be engaged, and I must be in friendly or headed to friendly territory.

Is that still accurate, or is the 2x FTL a balancer? If so, will it cost more points to increase our FTL level as we go up?


Question regarding my "FTL 2" research. I had envisioned this as kind of an "instant recall" to my planets via the special fleet support ship,  or from the planets to the fleet support ship, which would carry a "portable" wormhole device. 

1) Can it work like this, or would that require additional research points?

2) How many research points would that take?

3) Would it be easier / more fair to simply treat it as a 2-hex FTL instead of 1-hex FTL?  If so this is totally cool. I just wanted to clarify before I did any RP with it.

Ah, I had assumed you wanted instant travel to anywhere, which wouldn't have been fair at all. If you want it to be fleet-supported, I'm all for that; I'll let you decide how you want to deal with it though: trade your current special tech for it, or continue researching for a total of 12 points instead of 4 (if you trade your special tech, you'll keep researching FTL 2).

Both of those options will still have a range limit, but it'll be further than your current FTL level (I'm thinking 4x). The fleet won't be able to be in combat/hostile territory when recalling friendlies. Friendlies will need to be in your territory or heading to your territory. Since I don't keep track of what ship is where (Just where there are ships), I'll let any fleet be a support ship. I'll also require both territories to have fleets in them if it's within/to your boundaries.

This would mean that your territory won't need to be connected, but can be up to 4x your FTL level apart, so long as you have fleets within each system. The destruction of a fleet in a separated system would result in that system being isolated and you loosing any benefit it gave you.

Note for everybody:
Your systems being separated from your home-world further than your capability to reach them from your territory in 1 turn will result in their being isolated and you loosing their benefit, unless they're on a trade route as laid out in the rules.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 05, 2013, 05:45:25 pm
Question on Fleet Recall--you just posted in the Galactic War thread that my Fleet Recall is only 2x FTL, only while unengaged. But I invested 12 points in that, and with that I could have just gotten to FTL3 or FTL4 without the "friendly territory" or "headed toward friendly territory" caveat.  When I invested, I was under the impression this was 4x my current FTL technology, with those caveats that I cannot be engaged, and I must be in friendly or headed to friendly territory.

Is that still accurate, or is the 2x FTL a balancer? If so, will it cost more points to increase our FTL level as we go up?


Question regarding my "FTL 2" research. I had envisioned this as kind of an "instant recall" to my planets via the special fleet support ship,  or from the planets to the fleet support ship, which would carry a "portable" wormhole device. 

1) Can it work like this, or would that require additional research points?

2) How many research points would that take?

3) Would it be easier / more fair to simply treat it as a 2-hex FTL instead of 1-hex FTL?  If so this is totally cool. I just wanted to clarify before I did any RP with it.

Ah, I had assumed you wanted instant travel to anywhere, which wouldn't have been fair at all. If you want it to be fleet-supported, I'm all for that; I'll let you decide how you want to deal with it though: trade your current special tech for it, or continue researching for a total of 12 points instead of 4 (if you trade your special tech, you'll keep researching FTL 2).

Both of those options will still have a range limit, but it'll be further than your current FTL level (I'm thinking 4x). The fleet won't be able to be in combat/hostile territory when recalling friendlies. Friendlies will need to be in your territory or heading to your territory. Since I don't keep track of what ship is where (Just where there are ships), I'll let any fleet be a support ship. I'll also require both territories to have fleets in them if it's within/to your boundaries.

This would mean that your territory won't need to be connected, but can be up to 4x your FTL level apart, so long as you have fleets within each system. The destruction of a fleet in a separated system would result in that system being isolated and you loosing any benefit it gave you.

Note for everybody:
Your systems being separated from your home-world further than your capability to reach them from your territory in 1 turn will result in their being isolated and you loosing their benefit, unless they're on a trade route as laid out in the rules.

Ah, you appear to be correct. I probably just forgot what modifier I'd planned.

I'd point out though - the AP cost is more because the new setup has the potential to be very valuable; while you could spend 12 and get FTL 4, you (would, but I'll change it) have FTL 4 equivalent for 16, FTL 6 for 20 (break-even), and every step above that would give you a greater gain over your current FTL level. Granted, there is some disadvantage; it's not useful for exploring and is mostly just to transport ships around in your territory really fast.

As to your current AP, I'll give you 10 by thursday/14 by monday.

What's your stance on my proposed rule change further up?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on June 05, 2013, 07:47:08 pm
Even though it hinders me for not knowing about the upkeep prior to amassing space ship fleets I like the new upkeep system. Can I get my industry upgrades put into anything regarding upkeep reduction since I've invested a few rounds worth of AP in them?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on June 05, 2013, 10:08:42 pm
I also would like to know if I can decrease the amount of AP required.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 06, 2013, 11:41:20 am
Even though it hinders me for not knowing about the upkeep prior to amassing space ship fleets I like the new upkeep system. Can I get my industry upgrades put into anything regarding upkeep reduction since I've invested a few rounds worth of AP in them?

Great!

After looking into it, I've found that the system affects players with high upkeep levels disproportionately (it took the average fleet value, and divided your value by that. Low value players lower the value and get their upkeep kept low, high value have it high. I've removed the average from the equation). Adjusted values:
Hufer -5.6
Axis48 -3.4
Komrade -5.9
Holy Thunder -6.1
Tadius Faran -5.6
The Error -5.7
Commander Jackson -7.0

Upkeep is still there, but the best way to offset it is by building up and having a better income/upkeep ratio, rather than having a better income and a fleet smaller than everyone else's.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on June 06, 2013, 01:13:55 pm
I've changed the upkeep since the way I was calculating it didn't make sense (Hufer got slammed with it, while everyone else didn't pay anything).

Surely that is working as intended then. as Hufer has twice the FS compared to his SS while everyone else has around the same SS as FS

As for the upkeep equation surely something as straightforward as AP = 4 + ((2xSS)/FS) meaning as long as you have less FS than double your SS you'll be getting an extra AP or three. Alternatively you'll never drop below those four actions regardless of how badly you get hammered (so people never get /completely/ taken out by industrial sabotage.

Either way I'm thinking of stealing this base idea and seeing about developing a less... Ambiguous set of rules for my own version.
(if you have no objections)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on June 06, 2013, 02:05:47 pm
I support the idea for a minimal AP income.

I was wondering just how much AP I would be getting if I didn't have such a big fleet?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 06, 2013, 02:13:38 pm
I've changed the upkeep since the way I was calculating it didn't make sense (Hufer got slammed with it, while everyone else didn't pay anything).

Surely that is working as intended then. as Hufer has twice the FS compared to his SS while everyone else has around the same SS as FS

Either way I'm thinking of stealing this base idea and seeing about developing a less... Ambiguous set of rules for my own version.
(if you have no objections)

It's more complex than that. I'm trying to take into account any player's average SS (apparent SS/#systems), and balance that against all the other players' averages. Hufer is slightly better than that number, but still has way more fleets than systems and is getting the largest upkeep cost by roughly double.

Then there are modifiers to system and fleet strength for combat use that I've separated out. I"m also trying to keep AP values lowish, tracking too many moves gets tough. This lifts the limit of the original version, but it should still keep things reasonable. It also makes all the values just strait numbers, rather than fractions, so your level in something is your modifier in it. I've also isolated the modifiers from each other somewhat, where they used to all have an effect on combat ratings and AP, now combat-specific items have more of an effect on combat and AP-specific have more of an effect on AP, while preventing a kingmaker situation by giving diminishing returns at higher levels. So you get 4 AP for playing (unless you're Axis, who is a vassel), an upkeep mostly based on how many ships you have compared to everyone else, additional AP for trade routes, additional AP for relate tech development, and additional AP for system development.

Anyway, you're welcome to develop whatever system you want. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts in more detail; and I hope your setup doesn't steal my players :P Part of my motivation here was to speed up development and conquest - everyone gets more AP than they had, and once I've done the system shuffle (1 AP per system level rather than the scaled system they've been paying at), they may get even more.

Edit: Jackson - without fleets, you're at almost 9. With, you're at 8. Upkeep is a really low cost, but it'd negatively effect everyone else to get rid of your fleets- Hufer has an upkeep of 1.6, so would be up to 7.2 without any fleets; but he's keeping the average fleet size up so everyone else looses AP if he looses loads of ships. You'd drop to 6.4 if you kept your fleet and he lost his, because you'd become the high-outlier on fleet strength. In short, it punishes the person with the highest fleet-size, while leaving everyone else mostly alone. It also creates a situation where there is a maximum fleet size.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on June 06, 2013, 11:15:15 pm
I have a few things that need to be clarified

The aliens joining me results in...
 -FS increasing from 24 to 34?
 -SS increasing from 24.5 to 27.5
-AP increasing from 7 to 8
 -Both UB37 and WB37 being explored
 -My FS Skyrocketing above everyone else
 -And Target practice appearing at TB38

Is this all correct?

I noticed that my AP was at 7 instead of 5. Has the new AP system been implemented or is my economy just that good?

And another question:

If it is true that the new aliens have caused my FS to skyrocket to 34 how badly is my AP going to be hit?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 10, 2013, 12:17:21 pm
I have a few things that need to be clarified

The aliens joining me results in...
 -FS increasing from 24 to 34?
 -SS increasing from 24.5 to 27.5
-AP increasing from 7 to 8
 -Both UB37 and WB37 being explored
 -My FS Skyrocketing above everyone else
 -And Target practice appearing at TB38

Is this all correct?

I noticed that my AP was at 7 instead of 5. Has the new AP system been implemented or is my economy just that good?

And another question:

If it is true that the new aliens have caused my FS to skyrocket to 34 how badly is my AP going to be hit?

I correctly wrote up your SS and AP, your FS hadn't had the 10 extra ships added in.

What happened when the aliens joined you was that all their knowledge was added to yours. They have an understanding of the systems around their own, and so you know about the systems adjacent to their system. You didn't explore all that (they didn't either), they just already knew about it. For gaining an alien race, you got a permanent +1 AP (upkeep might lower your AP to 0, but after the +1). This is because (at some point) you would have been able to create a trade route with them, which is worth at least 1 AP.

In the new system your production and system strength are just that good, you won't take an AP hit either way (actually, in the old system you're lower than the new, even with upkeep).



Many special abilities can also have levels to them, though nobody's taken advantage of that.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on June 14, 2013, 10:37:59 am
Will probably start gearing toward interacting with somebody after the next few turns.

Question: Do we already know where the other players' systems are, or do we have to explore that far naturally? Alternately, if we don't already know where other players are, can we research long-range sensors to see them without having to spend several turns hunting them down?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 14, 2013, 11:08:52 am
Will probably start gearing toward interacting with somebody after the next few turns.

Question: Do we already know where the other players' systems are, or do we have to explore that far naturally? Alternately, if we don't already know where other players are, can we research long-range sensors to see them without having to spend several turns hunting them down?

Per the OP in the main thread, you are all generally aware of each other. Looking at the map gives accurate information as to fleet locations, system locations, homeworld location, & 'base' strengths of those things. I will (and have) stealthed units off the map before and can keep track of them.

You won't know each other's exact tech strength or what, exactly, that means until combat starts.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on June 14, 2013, 01:26:02 pm
Cool. Just wanted to make sure I can go straight to somebody without anyone crying foul.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 14, 2013, 02:36:49 pm
Yep, rogue/independent parties will have been there and back to tell you roughly where everyone is.

Keep in mind though, running willy-nilly through systems may result in alien/pirate attacks, as it can during usual exploration.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on June 20, 2013, 02:08:48 pm
Really hope this doesn't fizzle, I've been enjoying it.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 20, 2013, 02:25:19 pm
I'll keep running it as long as we get posts, but there may be fewer players for the time being. Oh well, just gives you the chance to rack up AP by starting trade with all of them while they're not posting  ;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on June 24, 2013, 04:56:01 pm
Requesting clarification or true-up.

Thadius  (I think it's Thadius) has a warpgate tech that gives him 3x FTL. I have a warpgate (Fleet Recall) tech that gives me 4x FTL. Presumably we both spent 12 points on it.

Is there a difference in the function, or do we need to get both of us on the same page?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on June 24, 2013, 05:40:32 pm
I have ftl 4 and a jump gate. I think you have ftl 3 and a warp gate.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on June 25, 2013, 11:57:30 am
Pretty sure you both have warpgate (1) which grants 3x your FTL level from your fleets/systems to your fleets/systems, so long as they're not in combat. Thadius has a much higher FTL level than you do and that's how he gets more range out of it.

Edit: Thadius; a couple of your actions (scouting and parasite dealings) so far haven't involved any FS. I've been letting you do it because you spend AP on it and I said at the start scouting fleets could be independent, but to really *do* anything, you need to send in a real fleet. So my current stance on your actions that involve FS0 fleets this turn is:

- Parasite infestation: Drones are no longer effective. Send in or use real FS.
- Trading fleet constructed (FS1) and sent to deal with traders via. normal FTL travel, since scouts aren't equipped to receive gate transit.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on June 25, 2013, 12:44:52 pm
Ok. Ill fix it.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 11, 2013, 12:56:54 pm
@ Commander Jackson:

Your fleet choreography was breathtaking for the last turn. I hadn't thought to synchronize multi-fleet movements to exactly the same thing...  :o
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 11, 2013, 02:01:01 pm
@ Commander Jackson:

Your fleet choreography was breathtaking for the last turn. I hadn't thought to synchronize multi-fleet movements to exactly the same thing...  :o
@Holy Thunder:

Thank you for that complement. I haven't even finished.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 11, 2013, 02:11:33 pm
True up:

 Me, I believe my new trading colony should only reflect a 2.5 strength, since I do not have an improved fabrication tech. If I'm not mistaken, system strength defaults to 2 AP per SS.

If I am mistaken, sweet!
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 12, 2013, 12:06:42 pm
True up:

 Me, I believe my new trading colony should only reflect a 2.5 strength, since I do not have an improved fabrication tech. If I'm not mistaken, system strength defaults to 2 AP per SS.

If I am mistaken, sweet!

That was one of the improvements when I changed the system. 1 AP = 1 SS now, people with colony fabrication lvl. 1 get 1 AP = 2 SS for the first 10 (what the limit was before I lifted it).

@HT & CJ - that was a pretty slick trick last round; the dice went *just* right for that.

@ALL - See RP thread for incoming threat announcement.

EDIT: Map update attached, indicating position of newfound threat
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on July 12, 2013, 05:13:38 pm
Love the NPC threat idea, hopefully it will involve intricate mechanics as well as good ol' FS vs FS action.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 12, 2013, 07:09:22 pm
New thread will be NPC controlled by myself, following all the regular rules you guys do with one exception: They've got an excellent understanding of how to develop quickly, and will be aiming to do that.

They start with 10 FS and 10 SS in the system they're in, plus some special techs. I'll let you know how many AP they spent every turn and how many they have available/have gained, but not what they did (unless it directly impacts you). Right now, they have 6 AP. Their name will be revealed later/through your scrutiny.

Also a warning - their systems and ships are dark gray. Their systems will be readily apparent, but their ships may be obscure. You'll need to check the map to check their positions.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 13, 2013, 12:07:03 am
I was going to suggest that you involve a big NPC faction but I was going to mention it later.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on July 13, 2013, 05:48:08 am
Poor komrade hes gonna get smushed.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 13, 2013, 09:12:29 am
Or he'll join the threat and help smush us before Me's cursed but inevitable betrayal...
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on July 13, 2013, 03:24:07 pm
Hmmm I doubt it. I predict that by the time he arrives. His faction will be Destroyed surrounded or almost destroyed. Also I request that Hufer give me the codesnto his gate so that we can connect ours. I also send an alliance treaty and trade treaty to him. Specifics to follow in RP Thread.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 14, 2013, 12:51:17 pm
I have a question about the alien societies that have integrated into mine.  Am I still allowed to establish trade routes with them?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 15, 2013, 12:02:14 pm
I have a question about the alien societies that have integrated into mine.  Am I still allowed to establish trade routes with them?

Nope, you've gained permanent bonus AP from them instead though.

@Komrade being smashed- Currently, I'm not planning on having the new threat just steamroll anybody. Per the OP/Rules post in the main thread, you're never eliminated unless you choose to be even if I (or anyone) do(es) steamroll. But the current plan is not to simply crush Komrade, I put the NPC near him because I figured he's been gone awhile and I want it to take some time to get to any of you active players.

@Thadius - if you haven't posted any actions, I'm going to keep doing whatever it was you PM'd me awhile ago, since it seems like you're around but not always posting actions?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 15, 2013, 01:22:06 pm
Well...peace negotiations didn't go too badly....
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 15, 2013, 01:32:23 pm
Well...peace negotiations didn't go too badly....

;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 15, 2013, 04:27:06 pm
Why didn't my SS go up? I upgraded several systems.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 15, 2013, 04:49:26 pm
Everyone else also improved systems; but the bigger culprit is the NPC development - them showing up bumped the average SS/system and effected everyone's AP negatively. I think you were *just* at 10 before anyway, so it didn't take much to bump you down. Improve more systems or research system productivity improvements (things like industrial tech or quality-of-life).

It'll be harder for you to get your SS average up than, say, Hufer because you have way more systems. If he builds 4 SS and puts it in one system, his average SS/system goes up by 1.33. You doing the same thing raises your average SS/system  by less than one.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 18, 2013, 12:17:23 pm
Moving from main thread.

My thought was that I'll  set another colony at 15 legitimate spaces from New Haven trade colony,  and another one close to Axis. Incoming trade can go through the wormhole to New Haven, which is within my FTL range from The Error. So New Haven could still support both trade routes. Is that accurate?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 18, 2013, 01:24:12 pm
You can have colonies spaced up to 3x your FTL rating apart because of your warpgates. Since you're using gates, I suppose you can go through other players, but not through grayed-out space (as usual).

To clarify trade, once you set up a route, the blue line indicates the path trade takes and the path that would be interrupted by player interference/piracy/etc. You won't need to send ships on it to continue using it, but you might to intercept players who are attacking the trade route. The RP side is that your initial ships are blazing a safe trail (exploring) and that invisible NPC ships from your faction continue to use it once established. Enemy ships can block the safe route, and force your action to redirect traffic around the block.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 18, 2013, 02:32:01 pm
Ooohhh, gotcha, not sure what the lines were for. Makes sense now. I'll try to found another colony soon that will avoid that problem. :)


Automatic Post Merge: July 19, 2013, 02:31:59 pm
I confess my eagerness for the newest turn to come out.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 19, 2013, 03:52:51 pm
I thought I already posted it? I did it through an edit, so it may not have shown up as a new post though.  ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 22, 2013, 08:22:26 am
@Hufer--not sure if that was there before and I didn't notice, but I dig the Geary complex.  ;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 25, 2013, 04:10:26 pm
I should note, I'm giddy with excitement about the Lightbringer flexing their muscle, and to see your collective response. A side note though - things are about to get really hairy  ;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on July 25, 2013, 06:19:58 pm
I am a terrible writer so I am trying to write something to accompany the response the "Lightbringers" (I didn't realize that the name was supposed to be secret/ hidden) had sent me.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 25, 2013, 07:38:22 pm
I am a terrible writer so I am trying to write something to accompany the response the "Lightbringers" (I didn't realize that the name was supposed to be secret/ hidden) had sent me.

Meh, it's un-secret now :D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 29, 2013, 03:58:06 pm
Me, I hesitate to question your NPC developments given the way you've handled this since it's started, but the last turn has been a bit confusing.

After 25 rounds, all players (including inactives) have a combined FS of 181. I have the furthest reach of any player, due to sinking 12 points into wormhole tech and 16 points into FTL while spending AP every single turn on AP.

In two turns, you have spawned 190 FS and 190 SS more than halfway across the map from your starting zone. If you stopped doing your system-splitter thing or building any new fleets, your existing forces could wipe Thadius and I from the map.

Having said that, I'm not entirely sure even which follow-up question to ask...
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 29, 2013, 04:15:20 pm
Me, I hesitate to question your NPC developments given the way you've handled this since it's started, but the last turn has been a bit confusing.

After 25 rounds, all players (including inactives) have a combined FS of 181. I have the furthest reach of any player, due to sinking 12 points into wormhole tech and 16 points into FTL while spending AP every single turn on AP.

In two turns, you have spawned 190 FS and 190 SS more than halfway across the map from your starting zone. If you stopped doing your system-splitter thing or building any new fleets, your existing forces could wipe Thadius and I from the map.

Having said that, I'm not entirely sure even which follow-up question to ask...

You guys also have a whole bunch of development that you're not accounting for; nor are you able to account for since I've got the numbers and you don't. My numbers (after modification) show the FS population of all players on the map as  575, and SS as 590. Now, the lightbringer are (visibly) extremely powerful; they have 200+ SS and 190 or so FS, but they don't have nearly the depth of modifications that you guys do. They started at level 1 for almost every tech, choosing a few advantages as you all did (though I'll admit, they got more abilities starting out), and then I gave them some special-circumstance plot-abilities. The current Lightbringer FS + SS total, after mods, is 989 to the players' 1165.

I am controlling them and  they're supposed to be terrifying. However, I'm not trying to eliminate anybody from the map. Since I'm controlling them, they won't be nearly as ruthless as a player who didn't care could be.

I think I'll release another RP post detailing the Lightbringer some more.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 29, 2013, 04:40:29 pm
Understood. I assume movement is the multiplying trigger.  I would love to know how they knew Thadius was continuing his trade route or how they triggered the phenomenon from 8 sectors away, but I will trust the system works. :)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 29, 2013, 04:45:48 pm
Understood. I assume movement is the multiplying trigger.  I would love to know how they knew Thadius was continuing his trade route or how they triggered the phenomenon from 8 sectors away, but I will trust the system works. :)

Their movement - and development- is normally restricted, this type of event is triggered by something else entirely.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on July 29, 2013, 04:47:24 pm
Such as?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 29, 2013, 04:52:49 pm
Such as?

I'm with him. I'm cool with not letting our in-role faction characters understand what's going on, but it's difficult to rationalize. First event, I'm moving close to you, nowhere near any of your stuff. Second event, two simultaneous happenings--one way up in the boonies where Thadius is extending his route, and again right smack in the middle of one of his systems.

We don't have to know the inner workings in any way we can take advantage of, but some semblance of reason or rhyme would be great. If I could pull my Upper Fleet from from the other aliens, I would currently hesitate to do so for fear of another trigger.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 29, 2013, 05:07:54 pm
Such as?

I hate to just *give* it away, but since you've both asked; the wormhole countdowns were them coming. You both had explored -but left unused- wormholes in your space. The other one was HT coming across a wormhole-system, in hopes that you'd take the shot across the bow as a warning that big stuff was coming, which just ended up making the situation appear much worse.

They won't be randomly popping up again (I've placed permanent wormholes for you to find), but it is very possible for them to do this type of action again. It also won't be as instantaneous as the first event. As I've posted repeatedly, I won't just steamroll anybody.



Side note, I should have held these guys back a bit and thrown a lesser threat at you and /or allowed you to fight a bit first. The lore I'd come up with them was just too tempting. Oh well, I'll have to gimp them a bit; live & learn ;D

I'm thinking that - if we do another game - the next one will have some more structure at the outset and a slightly different one during the game. Maybe a different map setup too, and I'll need to take a look at FTL mechanics; warpgates are killing my original rule set and don't seem to be overly beneficial to you guys. Exploration is also a bear for me to take care of, and the exploration table is pretty terrible. I'll need to do something different there.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Hufer on July 29, 2013, 06:03:23 pm
I like what you're doing with the light ringers and what not, me2005, real classy horror-show.

But I believe you missed an action for me last turn, mate.

In other words: you owe me a space station, I'll take it in black with the 28" rims and a custom license plate that says "SRC-LYF"
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 29, 2013, 06:15:08 pm
Don't get me wrong, I like what you're doing. I suspected the FS hadn't yet keen modified, which balances things. I should have seen the wormhole thing and probably should have investigated.

Rock on...lesser threat not necessarily needed, and still down for full contact play. (-:
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on July 29, 2013, 06:17:39 pm
I'm thinking that - if we do another game - the next one will have some more structure at the outset and a slightly different one during the game. Maybe a different map setup too, and I'll need to take a look at FTL mechanics; warpgates are killing my original rule set and don't seem to be overly beneficial to you guys. Exploration is also a bear for me to take care of, and the exploration table is pretty terrible. I'll need to do something different there.

I was thinking a lot about the random systems and the like and I think It'd be best to prelayout the systems (on a much smaller scale) before people pick starts and have several pre-designed starts for people to pick from (say design some to be nicer for expansionists and have many /decent/ worlds in the area for them to expand to and then have others with fewer but better planets for people that like "teching" it up with fewer powerful systems.

Although now I think about it perhaps even making "systems" contain multiple planets and actually differentiate between in system activities and extra system activities may be interesting. Lot of legwork to set up and organize is the issue. (although I'm in the more prep = good camp)

I did have a crack at my own version but I'm lacking the motivation to do much at all right now.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 29, 2013, 07:00:31 pm
I like what you're doing with the light ringers and what not, me2005, real classy horror-show.

But I believe you missed an action for me last turn, mate.

In other words: you owe me a space station, I'll take it in black with the 28" rims and a custom license plate that says "SRC-LYF"

I do believe you are correct; it's in my notes (and on the post?) but not the map. When you make your next post, add the station & its location to the post and I'll get it (map updates ... XD

Also glad you don't mind the new NPC :D

I was thinking a lot about the random systems and the like and I think It'd be best to prelayout the systems (on a much smaller scale) before people pick starts and have several pre-designed starts for people to pick from (say design some to be nicer for expansionists and have many /decent/ worlds in the area for them to expand to and then have others with fewer but better planets for people that like "teching" it up with fewer powerful systems.

Predefined systems that are secret is definitely the way to go. Even if it's randomly laid out, it'll be better than this roll & go simply because it'll take less time (even if I rolled all of the systems the way I do now, I'd be rolling all at once rather than piecemeal and it'd go quicker). Predesigned starts could work, but I like letting everybody choose what they want to do. I can always have them choose their start location and THEN lay out the system stats.

Quote
Although now I think about it perhaps even making "systems" contain multiple planets and actually differentiate between in system activities and extra system activities may be interesting. Lot of legwork to set up and organize is the issue. (although I'm in the more prep = good camp)

You've inspired me - using the new system-strength indicator, I could highlight how many 'planets' there are in any given system ahead of time - just draw the 6-12 points as black dots and color them in when a player has inhabited them. This way individual planets in a system could be claimed. The trick is determining strength of planets, but that might be done by the grayscale color of the dot (as now) and I'd draw a ring around the actual planet for the player who owned it. Better systems have more planets, and thus higher max inhabitibility.

I'm thinking one thing I'd do next time is split out construction from actions - SS and FS would be constructed; research, movement, and exploration would be actions. You'd get more CP based entirely on your SS and industrial strength. You'd get more AP as now, where more SS/industry help, but at a certain point you do need to look to other methods of expanding (trade & etc.). Exploration would also be more limited - one action, one new system. Existing systems you can move through like lightning if you've got the research behind it.

Probably use a (dimensionally, not more systems) larger map too, it'd let me put more/better symbols in there.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on July 29, 2013, 07:23:24 pm
Predefined systems that are secret is definitely the way to go. Even if it's randomly laid out, it'll be better than this roll & go simply because it'll take less time (even if I rolled all of the systems the way I do now, I'd be rolling all at once rather than piecemeal and it'd go quicker). Predesigned starts could work, but I like letting everybody choose what they want to do. I can always have them choose their start location and THEN lay out the system stats.

I didn't mean give people each start without any input. I just meant sort of "theme" several areas as starting zones (much like RTSs do) and then let people pick (Do they want a lot of decent systems? few good systems? a nice expansionist place? a easy to defend place?) that kinda thing
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 29, 2013, 08:16:34 pm
I didn't mean give people each start without any input. I just meant sort of "theme" several areas as starting zones (much like RTSs do) and then let people pick (Do they want a lot of decent systems? few good systems? a nice expansionist place? a easy to defend place?) that kinda thing

That's kind of what I did now though; laid out the places they can't go and said "here, pick a place to start." HT started in a cove and can't expand much to the back; Komrade started with a wall on two sides, CJ started in another, larger cove; etc. I just didn't tell them what was nearby (because I hadn't generated it).

Making a MUCH smaller map and giving people those kinds of choices might make for an interesting setup, but it'd be a different thing.

The real trouble is getting people to stick around; I've got what, 8 players? 9? But only 4 of them post every week.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on July 29, 2013, 08:53:31 pm
keeping players is difficult whatever you do. Making the game interesting and not too time consuming for players is the only way to really keep 'em.


and I don't mean like what you did there (because the starting positions atm really don't make much of a difference apart from how far it is to other players at least as far as I can tell) but I mean put it all out and then have a list of "prep'd" start locations so like:


1:  Location: Upper right
     Type: Expansionist, multiple good worlds


2: location: right
    Type: defensive, Few very good worlds with a bottleneck

ect ect. Means you have a vague idea of where people will be (make sure there's a lot more spawns than players) so you can arrange the map fairly off that.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 29, 2013, 11:41:08 pm
Once again, please don't take my momentary shock as the wrong way. I love the game and system.

Refresh my memory on attacking: I have FTL 5. Can I move, attack a system 2 over, and retreat back afterward?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 30, 2013, 11:26:05 am
keeping players is difficult whatever you do. Making the game interesting and not too time consuming for players is the only way to really keep 'em.

and I don't mean like what you did there (because the starting positions atm really don't make much of a difference apart from how far it is to other players at least as far as I can tell) but I mean put it all out and then have a list of "prep'd" start locations so like:

Actually thinking about it, 50% retention rate seems pretty good.

Would you actually list the stats for such planets, or just come up with a scheme and do it and let the players figure out what they like best? I don't like coming up with and providing background for the players, since they'll play how they play and what I see as a defensive bottleneck may be exactly what an aggressive expansionist is looking for. Providing different styles of start location isn't a problem though, and if I set up another 'season' of this, I'll need to pay more attention to the starting setup since I'll plan it more in advance.

Refresh my memory on attacking: I have FTL 5. Can I move, attack a system 2 over, and retreat back afterward?

That is basically The Error's special tech, so not unless you research it. It hasn't really come up yet, but in order to retreat you need to win the battle - you've got to at least take down the local fleet.

Lightbringer-warped systems are more complex. Each system is actually 6 systems, so it takes FTL 7 just to cross from one side of the system to the other (starting hex, warped hex -6, destination hex -1). You enter into the sector closest to your starting position, and to exit again you need to go through all the sectors in the hex. So basically, attacking one of those special systems will be like attacking 6 systems at once. Also note that the LB can go through those hexes as though they were regular.

Researching anti-planet tech (as I believe we've discussed being possible earlier) and building large attack fleets is probably the way to go before engaging.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on July 31, 2013, 12:50:57 pm
Another question. Since the weird systems actually take up each of the 6 hexes, and the RP indicates they're actually 6 separate star systems clustered together, is it possible to enter one of the systems and attack just that 1/6th of the system? I know that would invite retaliation from the other 50 FS in the area, but the SS from the other 5 split systems probably wouldn't be of practical assistance if the assault is local to that one area.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on July 31, 2013, 04:34:55 pm
Another question. Since the weird systems actually take up each of the 6 hexes, and the RP indicates they're actually 6 separate star systems clustered together, is it possible to enter one of the systems and attack just that 1/6th of the system?

Yep. The fleets within the rest of the sub-systems will also take at least a turn to retaliate, and it's even possible that they'll move to where you were but have just left. I usually make LB actions right after posting a turn (haven't yet this round though), so that their actions take place irrespective of what you're doing. I'll likely do their action before looking at anybody's posts tomorrow.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 01, 2013, 10:35:10 am
I have my RP post completed. It's 8,724 words. Can I post it here, or should I just link the word document to my dropbox?

Edit: It's too big. I'll post the dropbox link. I hope you guys enjoy it...
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 01, 2013, 12:02:10 pm
Did you say 8000+ words? I am impressed.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 01, 2013, 12:48:11 pm
Yeah...but about 98% of it has nothing to do with the larger story whatsoever. Just an entertaining tale within the realm of the Valencian Empire. :)

On the other hand, recent events made it a perfect segue, and a great way to introduce the (RP) Valencian ships and tactics behind my moves...
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 01, 2013, 01:03:14 pm
Where will it be posted?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 01, 2013, 02:18:25 pm
RP thread. I should have it up in a few moments--the logistics of getting a dropbox link here from work involve a phone and watching for management.  8)

Also Dropbox doesn't take Word formatting into consideration, so I had to go back and double-space all the paragraphs.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 09, 2013, 10:20:51 am
Me2005, where are ya man?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 09, 2013, 11:51:03 am
Per main thread, update might come monday. I'll see about getting it done today, no promises though. But if everybody hasn't posted again by monday, then we'll just end up delayed until thursday.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 09, 2013, 11:57:28 am
I'm a dork. My bad, I missed that. :(
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 13, 2013, 06:00:38 pm
Understood. I assume movement is the multiplying trigger.  I would love to know how they knew Thadius was continuing his trade route or how they triggered the phenomenon from 8 sectors away, but I will trust the system works. :)
I know how the trigger system works.

Such as?

I hate to just *give* it away, but since you've both asked; the wormhole countdowns were them coming. You both had explored -but left unused- wormholes in your space. The other one was HT coming across a wormhole-system, in hopes that you'd take the shot across the bow as a warning that big stuff was coming, which just ended up making the situation appear much worse.

They won't be randomly popping up again (I've placed permanent wormholes for you to find), but it is very possible for them to do this type of action again. It also won't be as instantaneous as the first event. As I've posted repeatedly, I won't just steamroll anybody.



Side note, I should have held these guys back a bit and thrown a lesser threat at you and /or allowed you to fight a bit first. The lore I'd come up with them was just too tempting. Oh well, I'll have to gimp them a bit; live & learn ;D

I'm thinking that - if we do another game - the next one will have some more structure at the outset and a slightly different one during the game. Maybe a different map setup too, and I'll need to take a look at FTL mechanics; warpgates are killing my original rule set and don't seem to be overly beneficial to you guys. Exploration is also a bear for me to take care of, and the exploration table is pretty terrible. I'll need to do something different there.

I happened to miss this little bit of information about those numbers being a countdown to the Lightbringers arrival.


Another thing.
I told my ships to leave IB35 not attack it.  Why did Theta's action to go to IB35 override my action to leave IB35?

Automatic Post Merge: August 13, 2013, 06:07:08 pm
And one question.

DID PUTING THOSE SHIPS ONTO HIGH ALERT EVEN HELP?

(I may be raging. Losing about 50% of you military does that to you. I'll calm down later.)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 13, 2013, 06:07:40 pm
Another thing.
I told my ships to leave IB35 not attack it.  Why did Theta's action to go to IB35 override my action to leave IB35?

Your ship leaving IB35 was surrounded by ships previously off-board. Your other ships went to NB35 (I think?), where Thadius also went, and as you were at war they just called in backup and opened fire. Thadius got opened up on because he outright threatened them, despite that they have more ships on that hex than Thadius has in total. Currently, you haven't found the Theta homeworld (or more than one of their systems), so they're more powerful than they appear (less than the LB though).

Your LB encounter was actually the start of a decent result, but trying to inhabit a LB wormhole doesn't go well. Gotta try something else :P
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 13, 2013, 06:32:48 pm
My plan was...

1 - Find Wormhole
Objective Complete!

2- Set up colony (for the warp gates)
Objective Complete!

3- Warp Ships in to wormhole system
You  beat me to it...

4- Enter wormhole and see where it goes.
Not going to happen...


Automatic Post Merge: August 13, 2013, 06:36:25 pm
Question;

Can i have a rough estimate on their combat capabilities thus far based on my combat against them? 

When you say much more dangerous you make me think...

A- They have advanced tech

B- They have A [censored]-TON OF SHIPS.

I am leaning toward B.  Are they centaurs or something?

I noticed that their victory speech mentioned hooves.

Automatic Post Merge: August 13, 2013, 06:48:54 pm
Another thing
This time for Thadius Faran.

Were you trying to do me a favor to get me to help you fight the Lightbringers?  If so, no can do.

You already know why.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 13, 2013, 07:02:11 pm
3- Warp Ships in to wormhole system
You  beat me to it...

4- Enter wormhole and see where it goes.
Not going to happen...

Well, you explored it just fine, but then setting up camp was probably a bad choice. Bringing in more ships wouldn't have done much, bringing in enough and you might have beaten off the LB defense force (if you study your map, you'll see they got pulled  from elsewhere).

Quote
Question;

Can i have a rough estimate on their combat capabilities thus far based on my combat against them? 

When you say much more dangerous you make me think...

A- They have advanced tech

B- They have A [censored]-TON OF SHIPS.

I am leaning toward B.  Are they centaurs or something?

I noticed that their victory speech mentioned hooves.

I assume you're meaning the Theta? Yes, they have a boatload of ships/systems, they also have tech in the same way a player does. Named aliens I'm keeping track of. I decided to base them off of the aliens (Achutanni?) in the "Empire from the Ashes" series, which are basically horses. In this case, they might actually be cows/bulls. Not 100% positive, but that's why I leave the *actual* RP mostly to you guys. The LB are the only ones I've really fleshed out.

You beat back something like 60 (I don't remember the exact number) ships with your 18, leaving them at 24, and in the other system your 1 ship didn't do damage against 8.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 13, 2013, 07:28:08 pm
Wow.  :o


This has been...informative.

CJ you're the man. Just FYI.

Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 13, 2013, 07:57:54 pm
QUESTION!

Now that i have significanly less ships will my ap go up now that that upkeep is gone?

Automatic Post Merge: August 13, 2013, 08:02:51 pm
Wow.  :o


This has been...informative.

CJ you're the man. Just FYI.


Thanks

BTW he pulled off ships from LB8E and LB8F.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 13, 2013, 08:11:53 pm
I noticed ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 14, 2013, 10:01:11 am
I'm protecting my trade partner from being destroyed by a now clearly powerful enemy. I need that extra stuff that I get from trade.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 14, 2013, 12:04:48 pm
QUESTION!

Now that i have significanly less ships will my ap go up now that that upkeep is gone?

Nope, already accounted for. Really, the LB coming messed up the (already gimped) upkeep system. Next time we do this whole thing, I'll set up everything in advance with a little more knowledge of how stuff works and what holds me back, and upkeep will actually be more of a thing. As it is, all of you have basically 0 upkeep.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 14, 2013, 12:10:56 pm
Nope, already accounted for. Really, the LB coming messed up the (already gimped) upkeep system. Next time we do this whole thing, I'll set up everything in advance with a little more knowledge of how stuff works and what holds me back, and upkeep will actually be more of a thing. As it is, all of you have basically 0 upkeep.

This is why I dissagree with you making upkeep relative to all the other players.

Although why you included the LBs in it as well I do not know. Couldn't you see that was gonna ruin it? : P
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 14, 2013, 01:21:29 pm
Nope, already accounted for. Really, the LB coming messed up the (already gimped) upkeep system. Next time we do this whole thing, I'll set up everything in advance with a little more knowledge of how stuff works and what holds me back, and upkeep will actually be more of a thing. As it is, all of you have basically 0 upkeep.

This is why I dissagree with you making upkeep relative to all the other players.

Although why you included the LBs in it as well I do not know. Couldn't you see that was gonna ruin it? : P

I had requested this, and at least one other player mentioned that they'd nearly requested it also.

Basically, we'd had like 15 turns of building up, fortifying, eyeing one another...we needed a common enemy, which the Light Bringers provided. They also gave Me2005 a more direct way to influence the game as moderator--if things are too relaxed, he has a mechanism to spice it up. If it's too much, he can come up with a plot device to back them off--or another NPC faction who hates them and us both--the Dark Bringers or something.

While the LB are now universally greenlit targets and occupy a huge swath of territory, you'll notice they're not quite advancing forcefully as another player would. CJ hit a bad stroke of luck with the Theta, Thadius has LB right in his home territory, and I've had to work to keep my trade routes intact. The only one not affected has been Hufer, who's been playing pretty conservatively (which is totally cool--he's the wild card with big fleets). Without the LB, somebody else would have had to be the target. I think it's gone pretty well.

Even now, I get the feeling I'm about to lose another trade route to that wormhole. But that's totally cool, and I couldn't stop it from happening since Me2005 gave the trigger away--it wouldn't have been fair to clue in my faction without at least one more demonstration.

Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 14, 2013, 01:27:05 pm
Nope, already accounted for. Really, the LB coming messed up the (already gimped) upkeep system. Next time we do this whole thing, I'll set up everything in advance with a little more knowledge of how stuff works and what holds me back, and upkeep will actually be more of a thing. As it is, all of you have basically 0 upkeep.

This is why I dissagree with you making upkeep relative to all the other players.

Although why you included the LBs in it as well I do not know. Couldn't you see that was gonna ruin it? : P

I had requested this, and at least one other player mentioned that they'd nearly requested it also.

Basically, we'd had like 15 turns of building up, fortifying, eyeing one another...we needed a common enemy, which the Light Bringers provided. They also gave Me2005 a more direct way to influence the game as moderator--if things are too relaxed, he has a mechanism to spice it up. If it's too much, he can come up with a plot device to back them off--or another NPC faction who hates them and us both--the Dark Bringers or something.

While the LB are now universally greenlit targets and occupy a huge swath of territory, you'll notice they're not quite advancing forcefully as another player would. CJ hit a bad stroke of luck with the Theta, Thadius has LB right in his home territory, and I've had to work to keep my trade routes intact. The only one not affected has been Hufer, who's been playing pretty conservatively (which is totally cool--he's the wild card with big fleets). Without the LB, somebody else would have had to be the target. I think it's gone pretty well.

Even now, I get the feeling I'm about to lose another trade route to that wormhole. But that's totally cool, and I couldn't stop it from happening since Me2005 gave the trigger away--it wouldn't have been fair to clue in my faction without at least one more demonstration.


I meant included the LB in the equations. Not in the game.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 14, 2013, 01:30:59 pm
Oh...lol yeah I missed that. Not sure how/why with that either.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 14, 2013, 04:19:22 pm
Yeah, the upkeep was basically not doing anything to anybody anyway. Introducing the LB, who have a boatload of units, as essentially another player (with some magical plot-powers) just made that even more apparent.

The gimp to the upkeep system was already making it completely ineffective. I think *at worst* one player lost 1 AP/round to it, and has since overcome that.

*shrug*

If I do it again I'll put the upkeep in there from the start, assuming I think it's worthwhile, and I'll make it more logical. Probably a flat "Each SS provides capacity for X FS" or something.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 14, 2013, 04:51:54 pm
Just do a flat equation. so upkeep = (FS/SS)*5 or something.

Independent of other players. Or even just do upkeep = this income = this.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 16, 2013, 02:01:58 pm
Post updated.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 19, 2013, 05:01:33 pm
Interesting observation: The Theta are more powerful (AP-wise) than several players. I'm excited to see how the pending war with them (and their allies) works out.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 19, 2013, 08:00:46 pm
I am the most powerful player AP wise. Lets see what happens.

I got this (overconfident).

Automatic Post Merge: August 19, 2013, 08:08:18 pm
I'm protecting my trade partner from being destroyed by a now clearly powerful enemy. I need that extra stuff that I get from trade.

I got it covered. Just don't hinder my expansion and I'll be fine.

Translation
Spoiler
DON'T BOX ME IN OR THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES!

Sorry, just had to get that out.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 20, 2013, 07:29:23 am
I am the most powerful player AP wise. Lets see what happens.

I got this (overconfident).

Automatic Post Merge: August 19, 2013, 08:08:18 pm
I'm protecting my trade partner from being destroyed by a now clearly powerful enemy. I need that extra stuff that I get from trade.

I got it covered. Just don't hinder my expansion and I'll be fine.

Translation
Spoiler
DON'T BOX ME IN OR THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES!

Sorry, just had to get that out.

Take care, my friend. You've also spent more of that AP on replacing fleet losses than the rest of us, also.  I would have to say Hufer is in the best position, isolated and unthreatened. When he gets into the action, I expect he will be something of a steamroller.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 20, 2013, 04:06:07 pm
Query: The lightbringer system I took over. Can I colonize it more? I noticed only a piece is orange.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 20, 2013, 04:08:34 pm
Query: The lightbringer system I took over. Can I colonize it more? I noticed only a piece is orange.

Yep, you can colonize that slice just like any other system. You can also take over the rest of the system if you want, though that'll incur LB wrath.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 21, 2013, 06:53:07 am
Query: The lightbringer system I took over. Can I colonize it more? I noticed only a piece is orange.

Yep, you can colonize that slice just like any other system. You can also take over the rest of the system if you want, though that'll incur LB wrath.

I think this is a great idea. I mean, with enough FTL capability to quickly support everything, it's actually a great set up. And it gets the LB out of your hair.



Quote
though that'll incur LB wrath.

yep....great idea... ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 22, 2013, 08:54:19 pm
(no longer overconfident)

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 08:56:30 pm
Hm... (looking at map).... this could be a problem. (staring at colonists + Theta territory)

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:07:46 pm
(After Looking at the map more closely)

....This is VERY BAD! ...

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:09:40 pm
(After Doing Some Math)

I am going to need a lot more ships...

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:15:47 pm
Am i understanding this right? I am being killed by cows?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 23, 2013, 07:36:49 am
It would appear that I need more ships to.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 23, 2013, 11:50:48 am
(no longer overconfident)

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 08:56:30 pm
Hm... (looking at map).... this could be a problem. (staring at colonists + Theta territory)

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:07:46 pm
(After Looking at the map more closely)

....This is VERY BAD! ...

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:09:40 pm
(After Doing Some Math)

I am going to need a lot more ships...

Automatic Post Merge: August 22, 2013, 09:15:47 pm
Am i understanding this right? I am being killed by cows?

Oops :P

Accidentally released a map with all the Theta + Colonist territories & Units on it. Oh well, cat's out of the bag now, I can flatten some layers. Yeah, they're pretty expansive, and they both hate you (& Thadius). You were being beaten up by cows, but then I reworked the math, it turns out you're doing better against them than you'd first thought. Odds are good you'll get a decent thrashing from the yet-undescribed colonists too though.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 23, 2013, 01:22:41 pm
You guys got this. Good catch CJ on changing the battle outcome--I'll have to look into some tech like that of my own.

My only concern is that the cows leaves the LBs with nobody to pester but me.  :o


But, you know. I got this.  8)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 23, 2013, 02:48:57 pm
Here's an idea you research tech and we build ships (FS) Then we trade it to each other. That way neither of us can get destroyed. We need a name for the alliance though. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 23, 2013, 03:32:12 pm
...(feeling guilty)

You released the map with the wormholes.  And I saved it and printed it.  That's why I suddenly sent my ships to that place.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 23, 2013, 04:05:29 pm
I told an RL friend of mine about this. Any chance we could fit him in somewhere?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 23, 2013, 04:19:43 pm
Seeing that my fleet wasn't destroyed, should I update my last actions?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 23, 2013, 04:54:19 pm
Seeing that my fleet wasn't destroyed, should I update my last actions?

Yes, you should.

Quote
...(feeling guilty)

You released the map with the wormholes.  And I saved it and printed it.  That's why I suddenly sent my ships to that place.

...And your whole fleet got wiped out. I knew I'd slipped up earlier and tried to catch you before you updated, but w/e. No big deal :D

Quote
I told an RL friend of mine about this. Any chance we could fit him in somewhere?

Yep, I'd probably let him take over the Xi's spot if he wants it, otherwise he can pick a place at random and I'll give him 2 special techs, some number of base-levels of regular tech (probably 15?), 45 SS to distribute as he sees fit, 30 FS, and 15 AP to spend for his first turn. Looks like I can do green or (bright) yellow easy enough for colors.

If he wants the Xi spot, he gets their 7 systems worth 46 SS, 34 SS, their tech that I've already picked, 2 Special techs (they haven't used the one they have), 7 additional tech levels, and 15 AP this turn. In either case, 3 regular levels can be traded for 1 special level and vice-versa. Anything could be stacked up (level 15 FTL, with level 2 Warpgates, for example). I'll change their name to whatever he wants.

I'd rather not bump one of the existing players, even though some of them haven't been active since week 3 or so, in the off chance they want to come back. Engulfing another (non-active) player (or the LB/Theta/Colonists/Xi if he doesn't take them) is also not a valid option, but otherwise, wherever he wants to go is fine.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 23, 2013, 05:06:33 pm
Post Updated
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 23, 2013, 06:56:48 pm
... And the update is out early!

Get more posts in, I'll still update it Monday.

@HT & Thadius
You guys did a bad thing angering the LB ;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 23, 2013, 08:12:26 pm
Holy mother of....
That is bad. Help is currently delayed due to the space cows being angry.

Automatic Post Merge: August 23, 2013, 08:16:16 pm
Holy thunder. Whatever you are doing is not making the Lightbringers happy.

Automatic Post Merge: August 23, 2013, 09:51:17 pm
... And the update is out early!

Get more posts in, I'll still update it Monday.

@HT & Thadius
You guys did a bad thing angering the LB ;D
I wonder what they did.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 24, 2013, 09:22:24 am
Thadius and I both knocked out a couple of their systems. I can't blame thadius, LB popped up in the middle of his yard, but my attack was to restore my trade route and knock back the aggression.

My hope was that you guys would occupy the LB while I worked out something to get them out of my grill, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. The question is, whether they realize what I have just because Me2005 does.

@Thadius from the main thread: the new factions are not OP so much as simply dangerous. You can't build fleets, fling them away, and expect your enemies to melt before you. The Xi could have been a major roadblock for me, but instead I made friends. You guys have been so aggressive that any reasonable nation would be launching a full-scale jihad by now. The best thing you could do is actively expand your system strength while building up your fleets--upgrade system weapons so they can't attack you without engaging your system strength. You could probably come together and wipe them out, but then you have LB to contend with.


**Edit**

I hadn't realized the "bonus" round updated. Yeah, pretty sure the LB were meant to be a supervillain handled by the lot of us, but Me2005 didn't necessarily anticipate the terrible PR job you guys did with the Theta.

It's just a change of tactics at this point. Looks like they upped fleet quality, so I don't have quite the edge there that I did. Also looks like trade routes are out, that other wormhole's gonna blow in two more turns. Probably just going to fall back to the stronghold and mass up. We can't match their AP and build strength at the same time, so we'll just have to hope for the best.


Or....

At this point all player momentum has stalled, and we're down to three of us.  CJ's massive fleet broke its teeth on the Theta, Thadius has been struggling to regain his footing after the LB blew open his territory, and my hard-earned trade routes are probably not coming back.  But, we've all got a much much better understanding of game mechanics and a solid idea of what-I-should-have-done.


It would be kind of nice to chalk this up as an NPC victory and start over--same basic rules, similar map, and understood that there are NPC factions who may or may not be reasonable. Me2005, give us 20 or so turns and introduce the Big Bad, or have your own faction that serves as more of an obvious balance--save the guy who gets gangbanged, stir up trouble every 5 or 10 turns if things aren't interesting enough, etc.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 24, 2013, 09:53:41 am
I was trying to do the same thing you did with the Xi but negotiations backfired now I have this stuff to deal with. :(

Automatic Post Merge: August 24, 2013, 09:56:51 am
And no I will not surrender. I've just had a victory against the Theta and my moral is no longer low thanks to that victory.

I have [REDACTED] that'll let me [REDACTED] and possibly help me end my war with the Theta sooner.

Automatic Post Merge: August 24, 2013, 09:58:14 am
That redacted thing is my other wild card that I have up my sleeve. I played my first card and won a victory. Time to play my other card.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 24, 2013, 10:43:44 am
I was trying to do the same thing you did with the Xi but negotiations backfired now I have this stuff to deal with. :(

Automatic Post Merge: August 24, 2013, 09:56:51 am
And no I will not surrender. I've just had a victory against the Theta and my moral is no longer low thanks to that victory.

I have [REDACTED] that'll let me [REDACTED] and possibly help me end my war with the Theta sooner.

Automatic Post Merge: August 24, 2013, 09:58:14 am
That redacted thing is my other wild card that I have up my sleeve. I played my first card and won a victory. Time to play my other card.

Maybe not so much a surrender as a reset button. Thadius and I are somewhat backed into a corner, and it's a downhill fight for the LB if they choose to continue. I'm willing to continue the fight, but the numbers aren't working out unless the LB literally sit and do nothing useful--and the thing is, based on decisions made before they showed up, I can't see much I could have done differently in the last few turns to keep this from happening--short of immediately running to the bunker and building up, which I'm not sure is what Me2005 wanted.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 24, 2013, 11:40:47 am
I don't want to reset. I think I can end my war with the Theta so I can pull some of the heat from the Lightbringers away from you.  I have [REDACTED] and I have [REDACTED] planned. Wait 2-4 rounds and my war with the Theta will be over and the Lightbringers near me will be contained.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 24, 2013, 12:03:09 pm
Just guessing here...

If [REDACTED] is Anti-System level 2 or 3 and [REDACTED] is using that weapon to blow away the Theta in their systems, bear in mind their systems are crazy strong.  If it involves your ship-capture thing, that should be fun to watch go down.

A reset would only work if everybody's on board, so I'm cool with going along with that. :)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 24, 2013, 12:27:42 pm
I analyzed the captured ships.   I know their FS capabilities as of the time I capture them.  I am going to have to send one of those ships to the Valerncian Empire for closer analysis.  From what I can tell you will be able to unravel some secrets a bit better than the CATS scientists. I would of course require that you send the information back so that it may be integrated into the SDF(Sparrowhawk Defense Force) ships.

As to my wildcard...you will just have to sit back and guess.

Automatic Post Merge: August 24, 2013, 04:30:53 pm
And a bit of free advice for Thadius Faran.

Last time I added up the total amount of tech for everyone i believe you (Thadius Faran) had the best system tech.    Upgrading your star system(or LB20) may be a good move.

I may be horribly wrong so don't blame me if it doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 26, 2013, 01:55:25 pm
Ah, the excitement of a battle-heavy round  ;D

This is basically exactly what I want to happen. The LB are the mega-supervillian, so frantic player posting and RP'ing are expected. Communicating with eachother is great. I've got another villain in the stable if I need it but I think I pulled the LB out *a bit* too soon. Should have made the NPC civs for you  to deal with first. Ah well, live and learn.



The LB generally do not expand very aggressively. You'll notice that 4/5 turns they're sitting there doing nothing obvious. As the supervillian, I do use them to curtail stuff I don't want, and they have quite a bit of plot power above-and-beyond what any of you have. They do follow regular fighting rules, they do pay to upgrade levels for things, and they usually spend points to build ships/systems and move.

I suppose a tip is that the LB aren't likely going to be defeated by conventional means. Also, anything in their transmissions in the brackets is open for speculation and interpretation. I really tried to make bracketed things consistent, and what they are isn't always 100% the correct interpretation of what they LB are saying. It can usually be *taken* that way, but it isn't necessarily the way it's intended. Do with that what you will, I'll answer questions about it/the LB.

The Allies, however, can be defeated by conventional means, weren't meant to be a supervillian, and play much more strictly by the rules. They can see what is going on, and can see good ways to stop it (breaking down trade routes to stop an enemy's manufacturing). Keep in mind, they are two nations. Also, I may be confused; the Theta + Allies are using unusual color schemes but their strength is counted the same way as all NPC's - dots around the edge = SS for all systems. I think there's maybe 1-2 systems in there that are really stronger than the best you guys have.

Without saying anything specific, CJ's got a pretty decent plan and really should have them nicely wrapped up in a few turns. I think there is even a solution that would end in their defeat/surrender/standing down within the week (depending on the actions taken today's round, which I haven't gotten to yet and will need to work on later).



On the topic of restarting, I'm for that, but I'm still not planning to steamroll you guys. As it stands, the LB probably could wipe Thadeus out in the next few turns and HT in 4-6. If you'd like to go total war and just see how long you all last before restarting, or if you'd just like a blank slate and the postmortem, let me know.

For a restart, I've got a framework in mind to simplify again, and at the same time add some complexity and keep my workload down. The space-cows will likely return as an aggressor, the LB might but at a much later point. It will probably take me a little while to get everything set up, but I'll start working on that now.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 26, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
I should start getting stronger at a pretty good clip within a few turns, but there's nothing I'm doing that the LB can't do faster. A battle to the finish is at your discretion sir.  8)


My commerce-esque plan for dominance was hatched before we knew a supervillain was coming along with map hack. Next time, that will not be the case. Although, the better knowledge of expansion was probably advantage enough, without the wormhole-system-splitting stuff. You could probably start a supervillain with the next round playing by the same rules as everyone else, and still come to a dominating point.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 26, 2013, 03:25:45 pm
I haven't looked at the war thread. I am concerned that something bad has happened.

Automatic Post Merge: August 26, 2013, 06:09:17 pm
*Glareing at Who's Online screen waiting for answer*
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: universeboy4 on August 27, 2013, 10:56:52 am
I just joined with a new independent nation, I would like to know how many additional actions I can take due to me starting very late.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 27, 2013, 12:37:00 pm
I just joined with a new independent nation, I would like to know how many additional actions I can take due to me starting very late.

Lets see...

I'll give you the basic background tech level of the galaxy (I'll PM you); plus 15 regular tech levels, 45 SS in as many systems as you'd like, 30 FS, and 2 special techs. Your 'reflective shields' should work; it'll be a reflection of 10% of the damage done to you back to your enemies per level. Note that that may or may not mean 'number of ships destroyed'. Pick a place on the attached map that isn't near anybody using the grid system I've setup (i.e.: Hufer's homeworld - blue eagley-thing- is at H10, and his ally Axis' - lighter blue eagley-thing- is at I11). If you don't pick a spot I'm putting you at KA19. You can PM me the tech levels and starting position you'd like. Each tech after those initial levels costs 4 AP per level, unless it is special. Special techs cost 12 AP per level, and can be picked from a list of existing techs other players have chosen or discussed with me via PM (or here, most players like to keep their specials secret though).

For this first round (due Thursday, though preferably earlier) I'll give you 20 AP. After that I'll have a player-stat setup on the results post and your AP for the next round will be shown at the bottom of your bracket. This setup goes for any player who wishes to join from here out, and I'll update it into the main post.

There is also talk of restarting from scratch; if you players agree to that everyone starts at the same base level. I'm getting rules set up for that eventuality now.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 01:43:04 pm
]

There is also talk of restarting from scratch; if you players agree to that everyone starts at the same base level. I'm getting rules set up for that eventuality now.

Without everybody on board, I think the consensus is to go on to the finish. But if you give me another turn or two before you start moving to vaporize me, I'm pretty sure I can make it a more interesting fight. ;)

A couple of ideas for the next round:

--It'd be cool to see a mega-villain NPC start with (or shortly after) us who plays by exactly the same rules, i.e. primary advantage is getting to exploit your spreadsheet.

--Basic (standard) tech and effects should be explained ahead of time, i.e. why should I research luxury level 3, or tech level 4? I do like the ability to come up with interesting ideas with the special techs, it was very cool to know you can work in some version of just about anything we can come up with. But "background" techs, we should understand those. Otherise, it's (more) difficult to formulate an effective strategy.

--Basic governing rules should be laid out ahead of time and fixed for the duration. Things like upkeep, auto-repair, and AP to build SS fluctuated, and it made it difficult fully grasp the game mechanics at any given point.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on August 27, 2013, 01:45:07 pm
At this point a restart might be best as going on would probably prolong a seemingly inevitable end.







My additional 20AP starter bonus as detailed by PM and in the Meta thread:


Actions 1-12: Upgrade Reflective Shields to level 2
Actions 13-14: Construct new space based defenses at Nebulos Prime.
Actions 15-20: Construct new fleet on each of my non-homeworld colonies, 6 total FS, one on each.


P.S. Sorry if this is a little cumbersome but its quite hard when dealing with so many actions at once :-)






Have you picked a spot on the map yet?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 02:06:28 pm
I don't want to reset. I think I can end my war with the Theta so I can pull some of the heat from the Lightbringers away from you.  I have [REDACTED] and I have [REDACTED] planned. Wait 2-4 rounds and my war with the Theta will be over and the Lightbringers near me will be contained.


I agree Thadius, but CJ seems to have something planned. If he's worked hard enough to have two different [REDACTED] plans, it seems poor sport to deny him a chance to try them. I'm not sure what your plan was, but mine was clustered with the wormhole entrance.

Epiphany. Can we in fact handle two simultaneously concurrent games? Start the reset in another quadrant of the galaxy, while yet fighting for our survival in this one?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 27, 2013, 03:18:40 pm
I don't want to reset. I think I can end my war with the Theta so I can pull some of the heat from the Lightbringers away from you.  I have [REDACTED] and I have [REDACTED] planned. Wait 2-4 rounds and my war with the Theta will be over and the Lightbringers near me will be contained.


I agree Thadius, but CJ seems to have something planned. If he's worked hard enough to have two different [REDACTED] plans, it seems poor sport to deny him a chance to try them. I'm not sure what your plan was, but mine was clustered with the wormhole entrance.

Epiphany. Can we in fact handle two simultaneously concurrent games? Start the reset in another quadrant of the galaxy, while yet fighting for our survival in this one?

I think he just wants to beat back the Theta, which he stands a good chance of doing. (If he gets his actions in sooner than later ... Nudge nudge )

I can *try* to do a restart at the same time as this galaxy, though it might be on a different update schedule (once a  week instead of twice; tue -fri updates, etc.). The rules sheet is shaping up nicely, and should work better than my current setup. I'll make the basic rules pretty transparent, though I like the obscurity that the combat modifiers provide. If I told you all everything, the battles would be decided before hand, and we don't want that :P

Restart info:
Presently, I'm using "Planet Strength (PS)" and "Fleet Strength". This'll be planetary scale, which is what I had envisioned the current setup as being but abstracted. Here, there will be planets and multiple players can control one system (as with the LB systems).

"Comms" will be removed and replaced with the more useful "sensors". Sensors will allow you to see systems near you through the Fog of War, which I'll also add and NPCs/stealth players will be able to hide under. Higher levels = longer range

Construction points & Action points - CP will be used to build stuff (planets, ships, possibly undisclosed super-weapons); AP will be used to do stuff (move, research). You start with 2 CP and 1 AP, and they are improved through their own technologies.

Relative Planet strength matters - right now, I'm assuming 10:1 to get 1 AP and 2 CP. Drop lower than that and your production may suffer.

Base techs will be cheaper - probably 1:1. Specials too, though maybe not quite the same ratio.

Trade - same basic thing, but you'll get Trade Points from it. These can be used for anything, making them valuable. Trade tech gives you trade points without having routes.

No more stupid bonus systems! (Which I've neglected to subtract out from you guys after some of the battles :S )

Sublight speed - How many planets you can visit in one round/how far you can go in a sub-hex. You start at 0, to encourage doing stuff before going off into space. You also start at 0 FTL.

Bigger map size - allows more details, like planets, to be independent. Might mean warpgates are built; rather than just researched.

Upkeep - actually works. Based on FS/PS, a tech modifier is available to reduce it. You'll choose how to pay from AP or CP.

Weapons/defenses seperate from planet/fleet quality. Thus, you can have advanced weaponry on both, but still have higher quality ships.

Planets are tougher inherently. It's the way the modifier is calculated.

I'll also try to do a better job of designing the NPC's and NPC events beforehand. Give me some time though to get set up, the spreadsheet looks pretty good, but the map doesn't exist and I have no NPC docs yet.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 03:29:50 pm
Sounds pretty good! I do like the obscurity and uncertainty that comes with not being sure what others are doing, and vice versa. What I meant was more of a "how the $%$ do I grow?" that I was occasionally beset with.

But I like it, from the way you describe it so far.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 27, 2013, 03:47:21 pm
Construction points & Action points - CP will be used to build stuff (planets, ships, possibly undisclosed super-weapons); AP will be used to do stuff (move, research). You start with 2 CP and 1 AP, and they are improved through their own technologies.

Trade - same basic thing, but you'll get Trade Points from it. These can be used for anything, making them valuable. Trade tech gives you trade points without having routes.
this is the only thing that stood out for me. why separate them rather than letting people decide if they want to be more researchy or buildingy? (or do a lot of scouting early instead of building up)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 04:09:55 pm
Seems like a way to force us into choosing a path. CP seems to be more infrastructure-based, AP seems more personnel-based. Trade Points being more difficult to acquire, it provides an easy tway to make them inherently more worthwhile. It makes a sort of sense, I guess. Unless you've developed the appropriate abilities, you shouldn't be able to go from operating five shipyards to choreographing five different fleets gallivanting all over the galaxy--it's an entirely different skillset.

It does highlight something though--which technologies will improve CP, and which will improve AP?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 27, 2013, 04:30:20 pm
I am a bit hurt that I was never included in the first post...

Automatic Post Merge: August 27, 2013, 04:36:17 pm
At this point a restart might be best as going on would probably prolong a seemingly inevitable end.







My additional 20AP starter bonus as detailed by PM and in the Meta thread:


Actions 1-12: Upgrade Reflective Shields to level 2
Actions 13-14: Construct new space based defenses at Nebulos Prime.
Actions 15-20: Construct new fleet on each of my non-homeworld colonies, 6 total FS, one on each.


P.S. Sorry if this is a little cumbersome but its quite hard when dealing with so many actions at once :-)






Have you picked a spot on the map yet?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 27, 2013, 05:10:28 pm
Seems like a way to force us into choosing a path. CP seems to be more infrastructure-based, AP seems more personnel-based. Trade Points being more difficult to acquire, it provides an easy tway to make them inherently more worthwhile. It makes a sort of sense, I guess. Unless you've developed the appropriate abilities, you shouldn't be able to go from operating five shipyards to choreographing five different fleets gallivanting all over the galaxy--it's an entirely different skillset.

It does highlight something though--which technologies will improve CP, and which will improve AP?

...
this is the only thing that stood out for me. why separate them rather than letting people decide if they want to be more researchy or buildingy? (or do a lot of scouting early instead of building up)

HT just about nailed it. It makes it so you must always build and develop, something that has not happened currently, to use all your points. Especially in the start, when you can't really do anything but build up PS. Eventually I might allow a special tech that lets you combine them/trade them, but it is intended to force players to build up before exploring. Partly because of the way planets are now handled - you're penalized if your planet strength:# planets is off (which is meant to represent the cost of maintaining low-strength planets). It's offset by the lowered cost of research too.

Industry helps CP, Logistics help keep upkeep down, Efficiency helps AP. I like(d) leaving it obscure because you guys can usually say something like "I build a shipyard" and I'll put that in the most appropriate spot (industry).

CJ - I've put you on the OP of the main post and I'm calling your color lightblue, since that's the way it appears to me. He'll be darker than you but teal-er than HT. I'll just risk not being able to tell which of you is which >:D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 27, 2013, 05:23:41 pm
*Squinting at Screen Trying to make out the light blue letters*
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 27, 2013, 05:45:56 pm
HT just about nailed it. It makes it so you must always build and develop, something that has not happened currently, to use all your points. Especially in the start, when you can't really do anything but build up PS. Eventually I might allow a special tech that lets you combine them/trade them, but it is intended to force players to build up before exploring. Partly because of the way planets are now handled - you're penalized if your planet strength:# planets is off (which is meant to represent the cost of maintaining low-strength planets). It's offset by the lowered cost of research too.

Industry helps CP, Logistics help keep upkeep down, Efficiency helps AP. I like(d) leaving it obscure because you guys can usually say something like "I build a shipyard" and I'll put that in the most appropriate spot (industry).
so you force people to generalize rather than just pointing out that it's a good idea to and letting them make the choice themselves?

Rather than letting people do it how they like? People tend to play differently depending on the benefits. I think if you explained the systems to begin with you'll find people will act differently than last time.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 27, 2013, 05:53:42 pm
[Operation Phoenix In Progress]

Just wondering:
Has anyone taken the time to look at the turns to try to figure out what is the play style of each other?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 27, 2013, 06:47:57 pm
so you force people to generalize rather than just pointing out that it's a good idea to and letting them make the choice themselves?

Rather than letting people do it how they like? People tend to play differently depending on the benefits. I think if you explained the systems to begin with you'll find people will act differently than last time.

Yep. They can still play differently though - some will focus on getting more research points, some on more construction points, some on expansion to get some of both, some on trade, some on special tech; kind of how it happened in the current setup. The difference is that they'll always have to use some of their turn building physical assets, which has been an issue because several players haven't built much in the way of physical assets since they're focused entirely on using all of their points for research. The rules and limits are there to keep players from having *too many* possible choices. If I just let them do whatever, it wouldn't be much of a game. I've seen that letting them use their AP for doing anything leads to them primarily trying to get more AP, not building up their fleets/planets. This encourages them to do both.

Regular movement *might* also end up being free, and only *exploration* would cost points. So previously explored systems or friendly systems could be free to move through; FTL limits amount of moving already. Another option would be allowing a fixed number of moves per turn regardless. I'll consider that bit.



Also - realized that my PS/P is overly optimistic, I'll need to modify my spreadsheet.

[Operation Phoenix In Progress]

Just wondering:
Has anyone taken the time to look at the turns to try to figure out what is the play style of each other?

Edit - Yes, yes I have :P
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 07:26:27 pm
@Niwantaw: I think the intention is to limit the ability to make terrible decisions. I'm more of a researcher, Thadius is more of a fleet builder. Either without balance is bad.

That said, thoroughly explaining the benefits and letting them all be AP does still sound like a better way. It allows for the risky plays of rapid expansion or excessive early research--and as the bad guy NPC, you can provide active incentive for us not to be stupid.

That said, I enjoy it and I'll play it however. But to be a great game, it'll need a reasonable learning curve.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 27, 2013, 08:08:54 pm
@Niwantaw: I think the intention is to limit the ability to make terrible decisions. I'm more of a researcher, Thadius is more of a fleet builder. Either without balance is bad.

That said, thoroughly explaining the benefits and letting them all be AP does still sound like a better way. It allows for the risky plays of rapid expansion or excessive early research--and as the bad guy NPC, you can provide active incentive for us not to be stupid.

That said, I enjoy it and I'll play it however. But to be a great game, it'll need a reasonable learning curve.

Well...what am I?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on August 27, 2013, 08:21:41 pm
if the reason is to cull research only players then I think you'd be better off not doing it like that. Perhaps having research as more of an independent system would work better for that.

Perhaps even do "research points" just for research (rather than bundling it with movement) and have perhaps a system were planets can be either industrial or research. Perhaps even making it so there are agricultural as well and have it so you require X agri for Y non agri worlds.


Would mean that people would be required to expand more to improve their production and research while forcing them to have "weak" spots where taking out a couple of agri worlds can cause other planets to be lost.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 27, 2013, 08:49:00 pm
Can someone tell me what my play style would be?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 27, 2013, 09:04:22 pm
Really, you seemed to be to be the most balanced. It appeared you had the clear goal of establishing local dominance before getting involved with other players for good or bad, which was smart. I noticed you putting some tech into your fleet, so I knew you wouldn't be a pushover.

Pre-Light Bringer, I considered you the strongest de facto player, with my faction having the stronger long-term plan--rapid expansion, benefits of peaceful exploration, massive trade network. The idea was to seal up the bottlenecks after I'd expanded, so nobody could get past my front lines.  After I got hooked into Hufer and Axis, I was planning to court conflict with you.

The Light Bringer wormholes screwed all that up, as though Me2005 didn't want me having such a vast network. You took a strong leap ahead of me when that happened, but then lost most of your fleet to the Theta.

I'm not really sure what Thadius' plan was, but to be fair he's not had much security since the first LB encounter.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 28, 2013, 12:31:45 pm
Perhaps even do "research points" just for research (rather than bundling it with movement) and have perhaps a system were planets can be either industrial or research. Perhaps even making it so there are agricultural as well and have it so you require X agri for Y non agri worlds.

Hence my quip on making moment free. I'll look at it, as is, I've got a good setup for researching and building; maybe building points are used for everything and research points are more limited. I don't want things to get *too* bogged down, and my experience has been that making changes to the map is what really messes me up. Having everything predrawn will help that, my modified setup makes editing systems easier, but keeping track of bonuses and which systems do what would definitely make things more difficult. The way I've set it up, loosing a strong planet can throw off your balance and cost points of both kinds.

My basic assumption is that each planet is basically self-sustaining after a certain strength, and the extra production is what you can use.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on August 28, 2013, 02:11:58 pm
Just a my-opinion thrown out here, the more I think about it the more I like the current AP-does-anything system, with the caveat that moving within explored space should be free. Having CP and AP encourages build this and do that, but you said you wanted to make sure we build up before we go running around everywhere. I think you'll see better / smarter gameplay anyway.

Having AP-does-anything offers a real trade-off between building fleets, expanding your infrastructure, and doing research--a country with the ability to do all three still only has the money to do one or two. Having the ability to freely move within our own explored space seems like a good balance to that.

That freedom, of course, could be paid with making exploration more expensive. You could limit exploration of new sectors to one per turn, regardless of FTL, unless specific technology is researched--that would probably slow us down a bit, and still allow strategic flexibility.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 28, 2013, 02:56:42 pm
Just a my-opinion thrown out here, the more I think about it the more I like the current AP-does-anything system, with the caveat that moving within explored space should be free. Having CP and AP encourages build this and do that, but you said you wanted to make sure we build up before we go running around everywhere. I think you'll see better / smarter gameplay anyway.

Having AP-does-anything offers a real trade-off between building fleets, expanding your infrastructure, and doing research--a country with the ability to do all three still only has the money to do one or two. Having the ability to freely move within our own explored space seems like a good balance to that.

That freedom, of course, could be paid with making exploration more expensive. You could limit exploration of new sectors to one per turn, regardless of FTL, unless specific technology is researched--that would probably slow us down a bit, and still allow strategic flexibility.

One major change to research I'm  considering is making *basic* techs only cost 1 RP/level, so each turn you'll be able to research a basic tech level *every turn*. I'll look at making it just one action type and see what that does.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 29, 2013, 04:45:25 pm
Are they in my border systems?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 29, 2013, 04:51:26 pm
Are they in my border systems?

Theta are, so are some Theta-Allies. I wasn't sure how I wanted to resolve that, so I left them hanging out there.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on August 29, 2013, 08:52:51 pm
Query: Has the entire Theta Dominion surrendered?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on August 30, 2013, 11:54:35 am
Query: Has the entire Theta Dominion surrendered?

They're working on it. Some rebellions may spring up in the southern systems, but you've taken their homeworld so they're pretty defeated.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 01, 2013, 11:59:36 pm
Really, you seemed to be to be the most balanced. It appeared you had the clear goal of establishing local dominance before getting involved with other players for good or bad, which was smart. I noticed you putting some tech into your fleet, so I knew you wouldn't be a pushover.

Pre-Light Bringer, I considered you the strongest de facto player, with my faction having the stronger long-term plan--rapid expansion, benefits of peaceful exploration, massive trade network. The idea was to seal up the bottlenecks after I'd expanded, so nobody could get past my front lines.  After I got hooked into Hufer and Axis, I was planning to court conflict with you.

The Light Bringer wormholes screwed all that up, as though Me2005 didn't want me having such a vast network. You took a strong leap ahead of me when that happened, but then lost most of your fleet to the Theta.

I'm not really sure what Thadius' plan was, but to be fair he's not had much security since the first LB encounter.
I always have a plan. That's all I am going to say.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 03, 2013, 03:56:50 pm
The Theta/colonist situation is that I don't have firm numbers on their strength and I'll recalculate it later. But they have all come under one banner or the other, so there's no more fracturing to happen.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 03, 2013, 04:00:37 pm
Reset:

I'm still cool with a reset if/when everyone else is, though it'd be nice to have as many of the same rules as possible--since we know these rules now.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 03, 2013, 04:05:53 pm
Reset:

I'm still cool with a reset if/when everyone else is, though it'd be nice to have as many of the same rules as possible--since we know these rules now.

I'm still working on the rules, but the basic setup should be similar to what it is now (you say something I do it). The real changes are to the formulas I use to get the results, so hopefully doing things should have a more immediate/obvious impact. I'll post a draft when I get it done.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 04:14:57 pm
I sent a total of 50 FS to RB36.

Automatic Post Merge: September 03, 2013, 04:19:06 pm
I didn't split the ships between my two systems. I sent all 50 to RB36.

Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 03, 2013, 04:45:53 pm
Also I'm cool with a not-reset if that's what the others want.

More opinions are helpful. (-:
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 03, 2013, 04:54:43 pm
I sent a total of 50 FS to RB36.

Automatic Post Merge: September 03, 2013, 04:19:06 pm
I didn't split the ships between my two systems. I sent all 50 to RB36.



Will be reworked; FYI - probably still results in defeat, just a more spectacular defeat.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 05:12:39 pm
You are joking.  50 + SS 12 vs 70?

That translates to
74 vs 70

You said somthing in the rules about there SS vs FS being SSx2=FS
And then we have my ship capturing tech. and my system weapons tech and FS Weapons upgrades and Defenses.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 03, 2013, 05:48:42 pm
You are joking.  50 + SS 12 vs 70?

That translates to
74 vs 70

You said somthing in the rules about there SS vs FS being SSx2=FS
And then we have my ship capturing tech. and my system weapons tech and FS Weapons upgrades and Defenses.

Forgot about the tech, I was rushing to get the update done. That'd probably change things.

SS hasn't worked the way I'd hoped in this version of the rules ever. That's something I'm going to change in V2.

Otherwise, they've got bombardment tech and a higher FS modifier than you do. capture alone will likely change the outcome though (rolls would need to go very poorly), so I'll look at it again.

Edit: After rolling 50 times for capture (There's something else that'll change in V2... smokes...), you capture 26 of the ships - unable to use them this round, they remain in-system. That leaves 44 vs your 50; be glad I rolled them as theta rather than Colonists. They still defeat your fleet, but only take out 4 of the SS. You now have 26 ships in-system and 8 SS, AP remains unchanged.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 07:53:54 pm
This is going poorly...

I need a new plan...

Automatic Post Merge: September 03, 2013, 07:54:54 pm
What do you mean by Rolled them as Theta? Are you saying that the Theta attacked me? Not the Colonists?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 03, 2013, 08:39:30 pm
I think he's saying he did you a favor because of the mixup, because you still couldn't have beaten the colonists.

Your new plan needs to involve better ships.

Or a do-over... (-;
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 08:46:16 pm
Question:
Can I get the remaining Theta Systems to join me?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 03, 2013, 09:32:44 pm
(In response to Me2005)
I think we need to restart.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 03, 2013, 09:56:17 pm
Well, what does universe boy think? 2 v 1 isn't a huge majority, but if he also wants to restart I think we should consider it. Also maybe put a feeler in the main area, see if any others would join a new round.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 10:15:37 pm
(In response to Me2005)
I think we need to restart.
...We might need to restart...

We should keep the old game running. While running the new game.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 03, 2013, 10:43:02 pm
That seems like it could get really confusing.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 03, 2013, 10:49:51 pm
I got a lot of cool stuff in the current game that I don't want to waste.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 04, 2013, 07:09:18 am
Ditto. At the same time, CJ, you're a lot further out from existential threats than we are. For Thadius and I, the LB is literally on the front doorstep. It would take several turns for him to marshal his strength to break my stronghold, but Thadius is kind of hanging out in the wind. And we're all quite a bit behind--consider the LB has 24 points being spent every turn, without any obvious change in fleets or system strength. That's 6 potential tech levels every single turn. I also suspect he's researched minefields and a few other nasty surprises--and on the matter of head-on fighting, we're only going to fall further behind.

There reaches a point where you realize you're never going to regain your starting strength, and I think we've reached that point. You can't even break down the colonists without taking several turns to revamp your military. But knowing what you know now, you could definitely keep some of your handier tricks while discarding the ones that haven't served you well.


**Edit**

Fun fact--I believe all players have posted actions, if Me2005 wants to give us another bonus round.  ;D
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 04, 2013, 11:19:54 am
What do you mean by Rolled them as Theta? Are you saying that the Theta attacked me? Not the Colonists?

The colonists have EMP, and would have straight-up disabled a significant portion of your fleet. >:D

Quote
We should keep the old game running. While running the new game.

I can handle that to an extent. The new game isn't ready yet, but I'll make the appropriate posts when it is.

Quote
I got a lot of cool stuff in the current game that I don't want to waste.

You can always get new cool stuff ;)

RE: Bonus post - We'll see, all this bonus posting is taking away from my ability to get the new setup in order :P

Automatic Post Merge: September 05, 2013, 07:43:53 pm
Didn't get to the whole update today.

RE: restart -

So, I've been thinking about the setup and working on it some, I think it'll be a few weeks or so before it's ready. We'll have time to wrap this up a bit more and/or keep going, depending on how you choose to do things. However, I've got some ideas I'd like your opinions on, as I'm trying to actually 'DM' this one a bit more than the current setup and have things planned out ahead of time.

1) Action points/construction points - HT thinks they should be the same; I'm leaning toward keeping them somewhat separate with a newish idea. The jist is that you'd use action points to do unsual things - fire EMP's, search planets for extra stuff, loot destroyed ships, try to capture, etc. I'd let you know what things require "AP" and which are regular. Research would cost CP, as would building ships, and planets, and etc.

2) Fog of War - you won't see the whole map to start, and possibly during play.

3) Your civilians/traders/scientists might try to venture out on their own if you allow such things to happen. They'd appear sometimes in random encounters with other players. There would be benefit to you in letting them do this, but also bad (your people/tech/goods/information might get stolen). I haven't worked out all the things that could happen from that yet, it's just an idea right now.

4) Persistent NPC nations like the Theta, Xi, and Colonists.

5) Planets. You colonize planets, not entire systems. Each system is pre-populated with a number of planets for you to explore/exploit. Multiple players can share a system.

Let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 06, 2013, 07:11:36 am
Sounds good. AP could also go to movement, attacking, espionage and other similar things.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 06, 2013, 11:50:31 am
Been busier than normal, I'll try to get the update out later today though.

One of the bigger reasons for the restart is actually the number of dropped-out players. I'm not sure why they joined up and disappeared, but w/e. Restarting would allow any lurkers to join without feeling disadvantaged (I try to give out bonuses to newcomers), and allow me to clear up some non-players.

6) Alignment/morality of your nation - things you choose to do slide you along the scale. Different races may treat you differently because of this, or they may not. Disallowing free travel or opening up on random aliens would penalize this, allowing trade and trying to communicate first wouldn't. Good and bad things to both sides of the coin.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 06, 2013, 05:34:53 pm
The update didn't have a map.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 09, 2013, 04:07:18 pm
@Thadius:

Dude, you gotta get a sense of scale to make forward progress. Warpgates take 12 points to go 3x your normal FTL, and other all special techs take 12 points, while having a limited specialized impact--even regular standard techs take 4 points to research to have incremental improvement.

You are NOT going to be able to train a covert operative and topple an advanced NPC civilization with two AP.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 09, 2013, 05:00:05 pm
Meh worth a shot.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 16, 2013, 04:59:48 pm
Wow....it's been pretty slow today. Ten hours without a post on the whole site...  :-\
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 16, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
Yeah mega slow.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Xavierman117 on September 17, 2013, 02:27:22 am
Well to be honest, what do you expect?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 17, 2013, 06:58:17 am
I expect warm fuzzies, more RP nerds, and cookies express-mailed to my doorstep when I get home from work--without me having to provide my address.

Is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 27, 2013, 07:49:08 am
Observations from the last two rounds:

The LB have acquired either massive cloaking technology, crazy FTL, or both. Since no LB has a visible presence in the affected area (but we can see everything else), there is either an unannounced fog of war, or they have cloak.

Active-use special weapons that eliminate or damage entire systems seem to work on a once-per-turn basis. Several systems have been impacted, implying either a previously-unseen AoE weapon of terrifying power or (more likely) a significant anti-system passive bonus.

Commander Jackson has left his LB-facing flank unguarded in order to attack Thadius, conveniently at the exact same time his bitter (and advanced) enemies are eradicated. The evidence seems to point softly at a league of some sort between the two. Remaining factions are likely to be fighting for their very survival in the face of a combined threat.

Things aren't looking great for Thadius.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 27, 2013, 08:58:13 am
How can CJ be working with the LB? They don't seem like they would be open to negotiations. Luckily my new toy is done and if it works properly I'll blow his stuff in to space dust. Here's a hint at what to expect. N v a
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 27, 2013, 09:39:41 am
Interesting.  Of course, now we both know you have a super weapon and something of how it works.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 27, 2013, 12:20:07 pm
Observations from the last two rounds:

The LB have acquired either massive cloaking technology, crazy FTL, or both. Since no LB has a visible presence in the affected area (but we can see everything else), there is either an unannounced fog of war, or they have cloak.

Active-use special weapons that eliminate or damage entire systems seem to work on a once-per-turn basis. Several systems have been impacted, implying either a previously-unseen AoE weapon of terrifying power or (more likely) a significant anti-system passive bonus.

You're not looking close enough; LB ships are nearly the same color as the background of the map.

They also have obscene FTL  capabilities.

Also, Thadius - I still don't have a PM from you?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 28, 2013, 08:34:21 am
I sent TWO. Sure you didn't miss it in the giant pm mess you probably have for being such??? a big member?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 29, 2013, 04:49:01 pm
Observations from the last two rounds:

The LB have acquired either massive cloaking technology, crazy FTL, or both. Since no LB has a visible presence in the affected area (but we can see everything else), there is either an unannounced fog of war, or they have cloak.

Active-use special weapons that eliminate or damage entire systems seem to work on a once-per-turn basis. Several systems have been impacted, implying either a previously-unseen AoE weapon of terrifying power or (more likely) a significant anti-system passive bonus.

You're not looking close enough; LB ships are nearly the same color as the background of the map.

They also have obscene FTL  capabilities.

Also, Thadius - I still don't have a PM from you?

I saw the LB ships after the battles but just barely.  If you zoom in a lot and have a good idea where they are you may be able to see them.  My printed maps aren't helping me as much now. Why must you use that color? It is virtually invisible on my printed maps.
:(

How can CJ be working with the LB? They don't seem like they would be open to negotiations. Luckily my new toy is done and if it works properly I'll blow his stuff in to space dust. Here's a hint at what to expect. N v a

You have made many boasts and have yet to impress me.  We all have super weapons.  So unless you want me to unleash my super weapon, stand down.

Commander Jackson has left his LB-facing flank unguarded in order to attack Thadius, conveniently at the exact same time his bitter (and advanced) enemies are eradicated. The evidence seems to point softly at a league of some sort between the two. Remaining factions are likely to be fighting for their very survival in the face of a combined threat.

DIE CORRUPT BEINGS!!!!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote
Things aren't looking great for Thadius.

Agreed.
  ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on September 29, 2013, 06:42:13 pm
Stand down?? I'm defending myself!
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on September 30, 2013, 06:51:11 am
And I'll be forced to defend my self through similar means, namely using my super weapon.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on September 30, 2013, 12:41:57 pm
I personally think the LB have served an excellent purpose.

If/when the next round is (almost) ready--which is such an appropriate theme on these forums--I think it would be fun to let the LB step out for a moment so  the remaining players can settle the who-played-best question. I doubt my abilities against the LB directly, given their massive advantages, but I think a mixup between me and CJ and Thadius could be very interesting.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on September 30, 2013, 01:51:04 pm
I personally think the LB have served an excellent purpose.

If/when the next round is (almost) ready--which is such an appropriate theme on these forums--I think it would be fun to let the LB step out for a moment so  the remaining players can settle the who-played-best question. I doubt my abilities against the LB directly, given their massive advantages, but I think a mixup between me and CJ and Thadius could be very interesting.

The LB pretty rarely take direct action against players, so not too many worries there. They'll hang around though, just in case. And besides, they make *great* walls.

@Thadius, I've sent you a PM, reply to that and hopefully it'll get through.

@Stealth-LB - They aren't invisible, but they are very close to "black on black" and they can move pretty quick. In addition to their (still mostly-secret) wormhole-network, they have FTL **. And warpgates, which I think is standard fare for just about everyone now.

Update should be soonish.

Automatic Post Merge: October 01, 2013, 04:54:44 pm
Been getting questions on combat and AP techs. Here's a current rundown:

Combat:

I take the FS/SS involved and apply modifiers based on the type of combat (FS vs SS, FS vs FS). I recalculate the modifier if combat changes (usually a fleet is destroyed and the SS is engaged). The modified numbers are compared and the lower number is subtracted from the higher. The higher number wins, the lower is destroyed; the higher gets repair added back in and then the modifier is divided back out.

Worked example:

Theta have 12 FS fighting Traitor 7 FS and 3 SS. Theta have a modifier of 4 against FS and 6 against SS. They have an initial FSm of 48. Traitor have an FS modifier of 3 and an SS modifier of 5. They have an FSm of 21 and an SSm of 15. They loose the initial fleet fight, and the  Theta have an FSm of 27 (48-21). They have repair 5, so they get 5 added back in and have an FSm of 32.

They still need to fight the SS though, and since the modifier is different, I divide it back out and multiply the new one in (32/4=8 FS*6=48 FSm). This is higher than the Traitor SSm of 15, so the Theta win again with 33 FSm remaining. Their repair gets added in again (38) and the modifier divided out to give 6.33 FS remaining. You can't have half of an FS, so that gets rounded - in this case down to 6 FS remaining.

What makes up a modifier?

Your fleet quality (speed, tech), strength (armor, shields), weapons, and bombardment level change your FS modifier. Your System quality and weapons change your SS modifier. However, your system modifiers also have an effect on your AP (though not a large one).

AP Stuff:

Most of your AP is gained through trade routes and bonus systems. Routes always give 1 AP, which can be increased with "trade" and "luxury" levels. One level doesn't equal any point increase, I think they're all set up to use diminishing returns. Some AP is in your system/system strength ratio, though again, that accounts for 1-2 AP of your total and seems to only ever contribute that much.

Industry most directly effects AP, but again, gives diminishing returns - playing with the LB's numbers it seems to be ~1 AP per 10 levels. I believe system values are the same way to a lesser extent.



Some of this is why I was working on a V.2 GW setup with much less ambiguity.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 02, 2013, 05:09:38 pm
Thanks for the clarity.

What about a bonus round of a different kind, where everyone gets double the actions?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 02, 2013, 07:59:57 pm
I'm fine with that.

Automatic Post Merge: October 02, 2013, 10:44:47 pm
I am okay with a double round.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 03, 2013, 08:42:41 am
It just seems we're all doing a lot of research / building / other prep work for whatever our individual plans are. I know I want so many things it's hard to decide what to do first. One or two "double" rounds can keep our power proportionate, but speed things up for everybody--and if we leave FTL alone, it keeps anyone from using the extra points for an unfair blitzkrieg.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 03, 2013, 11:01:50 am
It just seems we're all doing a lot of research / building / other prep work for whatever our individual plans are. I know I want so many things it's hard to decide what to do first. One or two "double" rounds can keep our power proportionate, but speed things up for everybody--and if we leave FTL alone, it keeps anyone from using the extra points for an unfair blitzkrieg.

Ah, but that's kind of the point of a strategy game, isn't it? Limiting what you can do *now* so you have to choose what will best optimize your choices later.

I'll see about a double round; maybe I'll throw in a research round or something since those are easy to do. Update may be delayed until tomorrow depending on my schedule today.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 03, 2013, 11:04:51 am
True, but it's not the choices that are daunting so much as the pace. I'm nt overly worried about getting attacked before my plan is ready, so much as the thought that completion of the current phase is at least two weeks away.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 03, 2013, 03:56:36 pm
True, but it's not the choices that are daunting so much as the pace. I'm nt overly worried about getting attacked before my plan is ready, so much as the thought that completion of the current phase is at least two weeks away.

This brings up the research points / action points from earlier. Perhaps not such a bad idea after all, eh?

I'll open up a 'research-only' round once I've gotten this latest round posted.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 04, 2013, 04:20:28 pm
So should we just PM you for the research round?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 04, 2013, 05:26:08 pm
So should we just PM you for the research round?

Or post it, if you're ok with the research you're doing being public.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 08, 2013, 12:14:08 pm
Re: Research rounds

Probably be a "once-in-awhile" type thing, maybe every other week.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 10, 2013, 01:00:26 pm
Stand down?? I'm defending myself!

I have seen very little resistance from you.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on October 10, 2013, 04:44:39 pm
A great campaign starts with great planning 
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 10, 2013, 04:48:06 pm
A great campaign starts with great planning 

My planning verses your planning.  I like these odds.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 11, 2013, 07:48:32 am
So I'm a bit lost. Why are you kids fighting, anyway?

Are the LB no longer a mutual enemy?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on October 11, 2013, 12:11:06 pm
I'm going to war because he ignored the fact that ME made the big bad LB / allied with them O_o and attacked me.

As put by Gal Civ 2 A.I. leaders " We would love to make peace with them but were not the aggressors ask them about it "
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 12, 2013, 10:53:52 am
Is this referring to a PM that I never received that requested that I stop inflicting violence against you?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 12, 2013, 11:15:41 am
Interesting. Did you receive my PM offering amicable trade?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 12, 2013, 11:25:30 am
Yes...
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 12, 2013, 02:18:08 pm
Ouch. Even nice guys don't like being ignored.  :o
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 16, 2013, 07:23:51 am
So are we due for another research round for Monday? Because that would be fabulous. :)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 16, 2013, 04:03:39 pm
So are we due for another research round for Monday? Because that would be fabulous. :)

Eh, sure; they don't take much work for me. I'm a bit nervous about the widening gap between you & CJ's power vs. thadius, so they may stop after that.

In other news, here's the V.2 map. Red are player start-points. The box to the side shows planet strength indicators up to 20 for military and economic strength. Yes, blue is an alien/NPR (non-player race), and yes, one player can start with one infringing on their system. Also, all the territories that NPR's will seek is drawn out, but I'm thinking some of them will be grouped at the start into a few different types  (I'm showing blue, red, green, and yellow. I think that's it). Territory is determined by the background color; planets are always white (or colored in). Lots of empty gray space for me to make notes in if needed; some of that can certainly be culled. Also, numbers are along the top; letters and unique greek letters are on the side. On the right the abbreviations for the greek are available, since I don't know what keys gamma, pi, theta, delta, xi, sigma, or lambda are either. Oh, and it's way bigger than it was.

My plan is for each planet to have individual ratings. Military strength (PS) allows the planet to defend itself, similar to how things work now. Economic strength (PI) makes the planet provide more resources. More military strength means more less economic strength is available on a given planet and vice-versa; as each planet has only 9 slots for either a military (1), military (5), economy (1), or economy (5) marker (black - 1, gray - 5). If you run out of room on a planet for more markers, but have some 1's in place, those may be upgraded to 5's for the difference (i.e.: You have 2  1's and wish to place a 5; it'll cost 3 and free up another white space). Planetary military doesn't have an upkeep cost like fleets, so keeping you from building your economy further is the only penalty. I might change the colors and stuff for clarity here; looking at the map on the forum it does seem somewhat obscure what strength the planets are. Suggestions welcome, but I want to limit the number of colors for my sanity and ease of readability - I want HT to be able to figure out how strong your planets are without using Paint/GIMP.

You'll have an FTL and an STL rating now. Ships can only move between 1 planet/round clockwise per level STL, and cannot move to engage planets after engaging FTL (they can fleets, though). FTL does what it did before. STL/FTL ratings will be public. Oh, and everyone starts at level 0 FTL/STL.

There are 3 other straight-effect categories: Repair and Diplomacy (work the same way they do now), and Sensors. The scale shows how far your sensor levels will allow you to 'see' into the fog of war beyond what you can see now. Keep in mind, sensors will be permanent around planets; centered on the hex, and aggregate between all players. What you can see, all the players can see. Fleets moving will have temporary sensors.

Weapons and defenses have been separated from FS/PS directly - before, there was an FS- Weapon and an SS- Weapon category, for example. Now there's just a "weapon" and a "defense", and they apply to both FS/PS. Then each has it's own quality and anti-PS modifier. Planets will be able to engage other planets in the same system, but you'll need a PS-anti-PS rating and an STL rating equal/greater than the planet you want to attack. Doing that kind of thing will also risk destroying some economic value.

There are 4 economic modifiers: Industry, Efficiency, Trade, and Logistics. Industry improves value of planets/CP per round, Efficiency improves AP per round, Trade improves trade value, Logistics decreases fleet costs. These levels may be public. They will effect your Action Points (AP), Construction Points (CP), and Trade Points (TP) directly. AP will be used for moving ships, diplomacy, making trade routes, conducting espionage, and similar non-concrete things. CP will be for building ships, planet industry/military, researching, and generally adding numbers to my spreadsheet or map. TP may be used for either. Fleet costs go up with larger fleets and down with smaller. There is also a clear connection between relative planet strength and AP/CP earned, lots of high-value planets are good and will increase your points; lots of PI 2 or less planets are bad and will decrease your points.

There are also the specials we've been using which will be mostly untouched. Some will change based on their overwhelming power, but that should be negotiated with me when it happens anyway. Capture will certainly change; stealth and EMP probably won't. Warpgates might actually become fixed structures.

Then there are 2 special fields that you may change at will, and 1 that will be affected by how those fields change and how I see you reacting to NPC's/players/etc. They are Free Trade, Privateers, and Morality. Free trade is a field letting me know whether or not you allow civilian ships outside your boarder - if 'yes' they may show up as NPC's for other players, if 'no' they won't. Setting it to 'no' may have morality implications (if your systems are within a bubble of hostile territory, it won't); setting it to 'yes' may cause independent NPC's to share your tech or gain you tech/resources on occasion. Privateers will allow your NPC's to pirate, gaining you income but again, potentailly angering other players/NPR's or getting tech stolen. Ideally, your NPC's won't be unreasonably far from your systems (if you have FTL 2, your NPC's shouldn't be on the other side of the map attacking players after a few rounds). I haven't come up with the roll tables for those things yet, so they're not final and I'm open to your suggestions on them. Morality will be a way for me to mark your behavior and you won't be able to do much about it outside of RP and actions. Positive numbers will be positive things, negative; negative. Large means you're further from 0, and I'll probably just ascribe 1 point to each action.

For reference; I generally view aggressively killing off everything around you as 'bad,' defending yourself from attack or attacking when attacked first as 'neutral/good' and succeeding in diplomacy and avoiding all attacks as 'really good'. Preventing independence of your NPC's is also bad, unless there is a clear reason they would be killed off in droves if you didn't. You're free to ask about your rating and the things you could do to change it. I'm hoping to include benefits for both 'good' and 'bad' moralities; but I also might not use it at all. Really, the LB would have made more sense if it were in this game so it's primarily for me to keep tabs in event of their return >:D

I think that's it for new rules and V2.0 stuff; any questions/comments/concerns?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 16, 2013, 10:36:07 pm
Nice! Here's what I got:

1) PI need not be easily discernable in the map unless it helps you--the gradually brighter dot thing should work for that. Military markers should be clear since that will more often determine our military course of action. I may have missed this--will each new system have a set number of planets?

2) I dig the morality thing. It would be cool if there were one strong NPC faction for each side of the coin, give the option of getting them to help you if they like you enough.

3) I really like the idea of Education as a basic tech to further your research / CP abilities, if that's at an option.

4) How much will standard / special techs cost, and what will our starting actions be?

5) How will you incorporate fog of war into a publicly viewable map? Or will we each get PMs with individualized maps?

6) This is a big bad important one--how will we attract steady players? This is a REALLY cool game to me, but it seems to have a hard time getting traction. More steady players make the game more interesting and less certain.

3) In hindsight, the LB would have been MUCH better and just as intimidating if they played by *exactly* the same rules as us. Their map hack screwed up the game's course and shafted poor Thadius. An absolute peer with secret knowledge would still have ultimately trumped all of us, and it would have been much easier to swallow--it just would have taken a bit longer.

 If you re-introduce them or an alternative, keep the superbad lore but develop them normally. We'll all know they're gonna dominate, and that we don't really have many secrets from them, surprising-tech wise.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 17, 2013, 03:56:37 am
Nice! Here's what I got:

1) PI need not be easily discernable in the map unless it helps you--the gradually brighter dot thing should work for that. Military markers should be clear since that will more often determine our military course of action. I may have missed this--will each new system have a set number of planets?

PI should be influencing offensive actions rather heavily.
Hitting a system that's strong in PI would hurt a lot more than hitting one that is weak.
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6) This is a big bad important one--how will we attract steady players? This is a REALLY cool game to me, but it seems to have a hard time getting traction. More steady players make the game more interesting and less certain.

a little more transparency on the mechanics would be good. Leik. how much does tech improve relative fleet strenghts? is it a 10% bonus? a 5%?
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3) In hindsight, the LB would have been MUCH better and just as intimidating if they played by *exactly* the same rules as us. Their map hack screwed up the game's course and shafted poor Thadius. An absolute peer with secret knowledge would still have ultimately trumped all of us, and it would have been much easier to swallow--it just would have taken a bit longer.

 If you re-introduce them or an alternative, keep the superbad lore but develop them normally. We'll all know they're gonna dominate, and that we don't really have many secrets from them, surprising-tech wise.

I'd not play them by the same rules. I'd give them a completely different set. AI war being a good example of why having the enemy on a completely different boat when it comes to rules makes it interesting. Just be aware that they are supposed to have  a huge impact but not completely wipe out anyone :L

@Me: you may wish to move the top left starting point to the right. atm that poor sod is screwed if the other two players expand more than a couple of hexes. (Perhaps M63 would be suitable.)

I'd be up for joining in the restart if A) Me gives us some idea on what the tech improvements does. B) He makes it clear as what the special techs does. I'd personally be inclined to have a flat rate for improvements. (Upgrading you lazors gives a flat 5% increase to weapons, then going on with cannon research would just work out as weapons level 2 so upps the previous to 10% ect)

and B) stops with the silly redacted things. seeing a dozen posts of [redacted] is not exactly interesting. Secret projects /could/ be given codenames but you've still got to let everyone in on the name. (and when it finishes). Sending orders by PM should be somewhat rare for special occasions.

....finally I can haz planetary jump drive for battleplanets? :3
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 17, 2013, 07:08:25 am
I can't speak necessarily for the other players, but the freedom to come up with whatever has been a lot of fun, as opposed to having only a set number of special techs. Keeping those techs secret is also a tactical advantage for two reasons. First, some of the things I have, I put a lot of thought into coming up with. If I make that public, it's like I'm asking everyone to come up with a copy or a counter before it ever gets to battle. Second, you don't know what somebody has til you fight them. Whoever I fight next in the current round will be in for a few nasty surprises, for example.

And of course, when it comes to fighting, some of those details shouldn't be public.

I agree the [redacted] isn't terribly exciting to outsiders. I think requiring at least the "x points to x general purpose" is good. Back when the first player got prefab colonies, for instance, he may not have wanted people to know. So "5 points to SS construction" would have given the general idea, without having to come out and tell everybody you actually built 10 SS.

For a while though we'll all be getting started up, and there will be practical limitations to how much secrecy will be needed.


For combat, I've been assuming a .1 modifier for every level of attack/defense/quality tech. Even if it's higher, the relationships should be pretty static.  I've also assumed a 2:1 SS : FS strength ratio, with every level of anti-system giving a 0.5 modifier for the fleet.   
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 17, 2013, 08:56:40 am
I can't speak necessarily for the other players, but the freedom to come up with whatever has been a lot of fun, as opposed to having only a set number of special techs.
I see nowhere me saying that there should be a set number. I merely stated that the effect of said "special tech" should be clearly displayed in a visible place. So that the owner and others are clear on /exactly/ what it'll do as per Me's interpretation.

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Keeping those techs secret is also a tactical advantage for two reasons. First, some of the things I have, I put a lot of thought into coming up with. If I make that public, it's like I'm asking everyone to come up with a copy or a counter before it ever gets to battle.
I think that can be dealt with in a simple manner. AKA direct counters and duplicating not actually allowed. Promotes variety 'n shit.

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Second, you don't know what somebody has til you fight them. Whoever I fight next in the current round will be in for a few nasty surprises, for example.

While I'm all for that in a limited setting I'm not all for that when you could have anything. special techs should be clearly defined so people are clear on the possibilities.

And you could always come up with several ideas for Me's approval such that several things get added to a list and no one can be quite sure if project snowblind is a mega emp bomb or a new form of kettle for faster tea making.

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And of course, when it comes to fighting, some of those details shouldn't be public.

It should be very public the moment it's used unless there's a thematic reason for it not to be. (More on that later.)

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I agree the [redacted] isn't terribly exciting to outsiders. I think requiring at least the "x points to x general purpose" is good. Back when the first player got prefab colonies, for instance, he may not have wanted people to know. So "5 points to SS construction" would have given the general idea, without having to come out and tell everybody you actually built 10 SS.

I don't think there is any good reason not say what you are doing. It's clearly displayed upon the map for a start. Might as well come out and say it.

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For a while though we'll all be getting started up, and there will be practical limitations to how much secrecy will be needed.

Never try to get someone to do something by telling them the start is good but it's all downhill from there.

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For combat, I've been assuming a .1 modifier for every level of attack/defense/quality tech. Even if it's higher, the relationships should be pretty static.  I've also assumed a 2:1 SS : FS strength ratio, with every level of anti-system giving a 0.5 modifier for the fleet.   
Assumptions are all well and nice. but I like not having mechanics hidden behind curtains for no reason.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 17, 2013, 10:41:57 am
I can definitely get on board with open mechanics, I would prefer that. But I can also see Me2005's logic and defer to his judgment there, he's putting all the work in.

For special techs and even weapon techs, I can't state enough I'd like at least the option to keep that secret. And I want to keep the options open--not knowing what your opponent has, makes it more challenging. If we're RP'ing, even lightly, we've got empires that are alien from each other. There's no way we would know the capabilities of other countries. Heck, we don't even know the full extent of weaponry used by our own side in the real world. I'm cool with a "suggestion" list to give you an idea of the things that can happen. It's such an expansive list that the combinations are nearly endless, making the possibilities nearly endless. Uncertainty makes us cautious, and you have the option of using espionage to find out what other players are up to even without it being public.

Knowledge is power, and making everything public makes a tremendous amount of power very very cheap.


Here's what I've found to be possibilities. Not all have been discussed with Me2005, so it's not official. And that's not counting whatever Thadius and CJ have cooked up:


warpgate--3x FTL between player-owned spaces. Higher levels presumably give longer range. Possible half-level addons include commerce-capable warpgates, and usage of warpgates without using AP.


advanced construction: Applied toward FS and SS separately. Enables 2 construction for every 1 AP. Higher levels increase the benefit cap.

Advanced research: Applied separately for combat, industry, repair, FTL/STL, etc. Each level reduces cost to research upgrades in the selected category. Probably going to be very expensive in the next build.


The following techs presumably have counter-techs that give a dice roll to defeat them. I may not know whether somebody else has spy or cloak or Capture, and may want to have counters just in case.

Espionage: The best case for keeping things secret--if everybody knows you've got it, it loses value. Skills involve comms tapping, training spies (requires successful deployment), and recruiting defectors.

Cloak--Another best-kept-secret tech. Higher levels increase the cloaked-fleet cap. I'd like to see a separate upgrade tree that allows "deeper" cloaking, to escape detection from anti-cloak sensors.

Tech Steal--dice roll to steal (copy) a random tech via espionage or battle.

FTL Inhibitor: Knock any fleet out of FTL if they come within x hexes of your systems. May require deployment. Additional levels increase the radius. May be deployed to the fleet.

Holographic fleets: once researched, 1 AP allows you to create a fake fleet of any size. Disappears during combat or in enemy territory, but provides a temporary shield by absorbing a % of the incoming damaged based on its proportion to any real fleet escort. Extra levels allow more resilient holo fleets.


Long Range Bombardment: anti-SS weapon that deals a set damage at range, with a critical success roll for FS damage. Extra levels increase range. I'd like to see extra levels increase damage as well. May be restricted for fairness' sake.


The following are combat abilities that take place prior to the conventional battle modifiers. Also presumably with counters, and some involve a "critical fail" roll that may prevent them from working at all. Not all have been discussed with Me:

Mines: set before the battle. 1 AP worth of mines destroys 2 FS worth of ships. Extra levels may increase effectiveness. One known variant is a doomsday mine that trades SS (or PS here) for FS casualties. I'd like to look into a fleet-based mine system, which would likely be expensive and less effective. 

We have not yet seen how Minesweeper would work, but I recommend having it just in case. When you don't know what your neighbors are up to, it's just smart.

EMP (or similar): Dice roll to disable enemy ships before the shooting starts.

EMP Capture: Special teams that capture EMP'd ships. Since a successful dice roll is required to trigger this tech, and for RP purposes the ship is disabled, I would assume this has a higher-than-standard success rate.

Quick Reboot: Your ships that have been EMP'd retain half their attack points for the conventional battle. An alternative is a dice roll to retain full attack points.

Barrage (or similar): Dice roll to destroy enemy ships before the shooting starts.

Controlled Collapse: Your ships that have been hit by the barrage retain a portion of their attack points for the conventional battle.

Capture: Dice roll to capture enemy ships. Extra levels may be required to keep said ships, and high levels may even allow use of enemy ships during the conventional battle.

Self-destruct: Successfully captured ships trigger a self-destruct sequence and auto-pilot toward the nearest enemy FS. Dice roll to destroy enemy FS when they detonate.

Rapid Deployment: Dice Roll to have your special attacks occur before the enemy's special attacks.

**That's all I've thought of, though there may be more. Pre-battle, you're basically looking at ways to disable, destroy, or take over enemy ships. Not much else you can do with them.


The following are possible conventional battle modifiers. Few if any of these have been seen in battle, and are mostly hypothetical. Potentially very possible.

Reflective shields: Suggested by Me early on. Reflects 10% of the enemy's attack back at them. Maxes out at 30%.

Armor Debuff: disregard a % of your enemy's defenses. Probably an expensive skill.

Vampiric beam: Convert part of your enemy's armor/shields to your own shields. Probably an expensive skill.

Rapid Fire: Increase your attack by a % of your conventional modifier. Becomes more powerful as your conventional modifier increases.

Armor/shield Buff: Increase your defense by a % of your conventional modifier.   Becomes more powerful as your conventional modifier increases.

Anti-system: More commonly known as "Bombardment," this gives your fleet a specific modifier against planetary defenses. Extra levels increase effectiveness.

Anti-anti-system: A shield dome, if you will, it counters the effects of Bombardment.

Anti-fleet: Ion cannon, moon-based laser arrays, call it what you will. Provides your planets a specific modifier against incoming FS. Not yet seen in battle, but I figure what works for the goose works for the gander.

Auxilary Defense: provides x bonus FS for every 10 or so PS in your system. These come in handy for battle, but cannot otherwise be used.

Help Beacon: If you have warpgates, Auxilary FS can come to the aid of any planet under attack within x radius.

Defense Station: hypothetical here, for V2. Requires research and then deployment. It's a system-based defense that  provides either a modifier or a dice-roll to destroy enemy FS for every planet in the system.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 17, 2013, 01:15:27 pm
Alright, there's a ton going on here, so if I miss anything just ask again.

1) PI need not be easily discernable in the map unless it helps you-It does
PI should be influencing offensive actions rather heavily.
Hitting a system that's strong in PI would hurt a lot more than hitting one that is weak.

Niw is correct; and PI will be a more important factor here.

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6) This is a big bad important one--how will we attract steady players? This is a REALLY cool game to me, but it seems to have a hard time getting traction. More steady players make the game more interesting and less certain.

a little more transparency on the mechanics would be good. Leik. how much does tech improve relative fleet strenghts? is it a 10% bonus? a 5%?

I do just about everything I can to be a consistent moderator for this thing, which seems to me to be the biggest problem I've seen elsewhere. Bringing more people into BR as a whole seems to be the main problem. I'm going to be somewhat more open with mechanics; but I do want to keep any players actual strength-modifier hidden. If you know you're level 7 and they're level 3, you know your ships are better and that you'll likely win. If you know your ship modifier is 15 and theirs is 4, you know exactly how many ships you need to bring to win with X remaining. It's also not easy to describe the relationship between any given level and the modifier, except that quality (of either ships or planet military) just adds to it. Weapons/Defenses get combined and then slapped on a log-scale. Bombardment just adds to your anti-planet strength; which it has always done.

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3) In hindsight, the LB would have been MUCH better and just as intimidating if they played by *exactly* the same rules as us. ....

I'd not play them by the same rules. I'd give them a completely different set. AI war being a good example of why having the enemy on a completely different boat when it comes to rules makes it interesting. Just be aware that they are supposed to have  a huge impact but not completely wipe out anyone :L

I'm more in line with niw on this; they'll follow rules, but they are supposed to be a super-NPC. Regular NPC's will follow the regular rules for the most part, and will have their own goals as far as I can handle that. The LB will definitely come later this round, if at all. Having them show up as the first real threat was a poor choice on my part.

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@Me: you may wish to move the top left starting point to the right. atm that poor sod is screwed if the other two players expand more than a couple of hexes. (Perhaps M63 would be suitable.)

Map is obscured; there are NPC's in place all over the place and I've taken them into account. Other than that, they're far enough apart that a few things can happen to allow expansion - players just let them go through (as now), players don't expand that far (also as now; CJ has the most hexes and he'd nearly fit into that area), players don't pick all those points, or war (which I'm fine with). I might move the point to the right of that one over a bit or open up one of the gray areas though.

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I'd be up for joining in the restart if A) Me gives us some idea on what the tech improvements does. B) He makes it clear as what the special techs does. I'd personally be inclined to have a flat rate for improvements. (Upgrading you lazors gives a flat 5% increase to weapons, then going on with cannon research would just work out as weapons level 2 so upps the previous to 10% ect) and C) stops with the silly redacted things. seeing a dozen posts of [redacted] is not exactly interesting. Secret projects /could/ be given codenames but you've still got to let everyone in on the name. (and when it finishes). Sending orders by PM should be somewhat rare for special occasions.

....finally I can haz planetary jump drive for battleplanets? :3

I'm working on A for this round and have already given a much better idea than last time. I do currently count any weapon-sounding upgrade as a level to "weapons" - so you can research "lasers" and "missiles" and you'll be level 2 weapons (though I also currently count weapons seperately for ships/systems; that has changed in V2.0). B is clear but you're not in on the PMs :P  For exampe: EMP is given as a critical D6 roll at the beginning of each battle; on success another D6 roll for the number of ships disabled. EMP will change in this version to be more potent and upgradeable though.
C - I agree, and that is mostly because it is difficult for me to coordinate everything. If it makes it more interesting/exciting for readers, that's great too (I haven't been considering that there were people reading everyone's action-posts!).

(D) - Hufer already does :D (His special tech is "mobile SS" which does exactly what it sounds like. He never used it, and I'm not sure how useful it'd be, but there you go).

I can't speak necessarily for the other players, but the freedom to come up with whatever has been a lot of fun, as opposed to having only a set number of special techs.
I see nowhere me saying that there should be a set number. I merely stated that the effect of said "special tech" should be clearly displayed in a visible place. So that the owner and others are clear on /exactly/ what it'll do as per Me's interpretation.

The owners are pretty clear on what it'll do, as per my above examples. I sometimes forget that someone has a special tech though.

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Keeping those techs secret is also a tactical advantage for two reasons. First, some of the things I have, I put a lot of thought into coming up with. If I make that public, it's like I'm asking everyone to come up with a copy or a counter before it ever gets to battle.
I think that can be dealt with in a simple manner. AKA direct counters and duplicating not actually allowed. Promotes variety 'n shit.

My plan was to de-classify a number of common techs, especially where multiple players have them and don't even know about it, and canonize them. Then continue letting you guys make up whatever fits into the rules. A whole slew of new options should be available with the new setup. I'm also considering just posting everyone's level researched in whatever it is they're researching, so we're clear on what happened, but not necessarily revealing what it does (I.e.: Axis researches weapons level 7. Thadius researches warpgates 4. HT researches pheonix 2.)

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Second, you don't know what somebody has til you fight them. Whoever I fight next in the current round will be in for a few nasty surprises, for example.

While I'm all for that in a limited setting I'm not all for that when you could have anything. special techs should be clearly defined so people are clear on the possibilities.

I control the actual effects of the special techs; so any given special tech shouldn't be a magic bullet. Unfortunately, capture is turning into something of an animal.

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And you could always come up with several ideas for Me's approval such that several things get added to a list and no one can be quite sure if project snowblind is a mega emp bomb or a new form of kettle for faster tea making.

I do support this idea :D

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And of course, when it comes to fighting, some of those details shouldn't be public.

It should be very public the moment it's used unless there's a thematic reason for it not to be. (More on that later.)

Most of the specials existance become evident when used. The exact effect is obscure, but I'll give that out if a player asks/tries to research it.

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For combat, I've been assuming a .1 modifier for every level of attack/defense/quality tech. Even if it's higher, the relationships should be pretty static.  I've also assumed a 2:1 SS : FS strength ratio, with every level of anti-system giving a 0.5 modifier for the fleet.   
Assumptions are all well and nice. but I like not having mechanics hidden behind curtains for no reason.

It's a very strange relationship for levels:modifiers - currently it involves squares, so having all your levels higher = better than having one high. The new version is less obtuse and I'll be able to explain it better.

I can definitely get on board with open mechanics, I would prefer that. But I can also see Me2005's logic and defer to his judgment there, he's putting all the work in.

I don't remember if I wrote it out or not, so here it is:

I don't mind telling you what level any given tech is, or the gist of how the combat mechanics work. I do mind telling you your and your opponent's exact combat modifier, since then you know how many ships to send in to do exactly what you want. The combat system is simple here; there is no randomization once the battle starts (after specials). There needs to be some combat-fog to have a conflict, otherwise you know the outcome in advance and it's not exciting. My way of providing that is keeping the modifiers obscure.

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For special techs and even weapon techs, I can't state enough I'd like at least the option to keep that secret. And I want to keep the options open--not knowing what your opponent has, makes it more challenging. If we're RP'ing, even lightly, we've got empires that are alien from each other. There's no way we would know the capabilities of other countries. Heck, we don't even know the full extent of weaponry used by our own side in the real world. I'm cool with a "suggestion" list to give you an idea of the things that can happen. It's such an expansive list that the combinations are nearly endless, making the possibilities nearly endless. Uncertainty makes us cautious, and you have the option of using espionage to find out what other players are up to even without it being public.

I'm also for this; perhaps a compromise is to declassify stuff when it gets into use by multiple players. I'm also hoping that having trader/pirate/civilian NPC's can help de-obscure some of the obscure stuff.

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Here's what I've found to be possibilities. Not all have been discussed with Me2005, so it's not official. And that's not counting whatever Thadius and CJ have cooked up:

warpgate--3x FTL between player-owned spaces. Higher levels presumably give longer range. Possible half-level addons include commerce-capable warpgates, and usage of warpgates without using AP.

advanced construction: Applied toward FS and SS separately. Enables 2 construction for every 1 AP. Higher levels increase the benefit cap.

Advanced research: Applied separately for combat, industry, repair, FTL/STL, etc. Each level reduces cost to research upgrades in the selected category. Probably going to be very expensive in the next build.

Something like those will go on the public specials-list.

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The following techs presumably have counter-techs that give a dice roll to defeat them. I may not know whether somebody else has spy or cloak or Capture, and may want to have counters just in case.

Espionage: The best case for keeping things secret--if everybody knows you've got it, it loses value. Skills involve comms tapping, training spies (requires successful deployment), and recruiting defectors.

Cloak--Another best-kept-secret tech. Higher levels increase the cloaked-fleet cap. I'd like to see a separate upgrade tree that allows "deeper" cloaking, to escape detection from anti-cloak sensors.

Tech Steal--dice roll to steal (copy) a random tech via espionage or battle.

FTL Inhibitor: Knock any fleet out of FTL if they come within x hexes of your systems. May require deployment. Additional levels increase the radius. May be deployed to the fleet.

Holographic fleets: once researched, 1 AP allows you to create a fake fleet of any size. Disappears during combat or in enemy territory, but provides a temporary shield by absorbing a % of the incoming damaged based on its proportion to any real fleet escort. Extra levels allow more resilient holo fleets.

Long Range Bombardment: anti-SS weapon that deals a set damage at range, with a critical success roll for FS damage. Extra levels increase range. I'd like to see extra levels increase damage as well. May be restricted for fairness' sake.

These will likely be explained on the public list, but not publicly listed when researched.

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The following are combat abilities that take place prior to the conventional battle modifiers. Also presumably with counters, and some involve a "critical fail" roll that may prevent them from working at all. Not all have been discussed with Me:

Mines: set before the battle. 1 AP worth of mines destroys 2 FS worth of ships. Extra levels may increase effectiveness. One known variant is a doomsday mine that trades SS (or PS here) for FS casualties. I'd like to look into a fleet-based mine system, which would likely be expensive and less effective. 

We have not yet seen how Minesweeper would work, but I recommend having it just in case. When you don't know what your neighbors are up to, it's just smart.

EMP (or similar): Dice roll to disable enemy ships before the shooting starts.

EMP Capture: Special teams that capture EMP'd ships. Since a successful dice roll is required to trigger this tech, and for RP purposes the ship is disabled, I would assume this has a higher-than-standard success rate.

Quick Reboot: Your ships that have been EMP'd retain half their attack points for the conventional battle. An alternative is a dice roll to retain full attack points.

Barrage (or similar): Dice roll to destroy enemy ships before the shooting starts.

Controlled Collapse: Your ships that have been hit by the barrage retain a portion of their attack points for the conventional battle.

Capture: Dice roll to capture enemy ships. Extra levels may be required to keep said ships, and high levels may even allow use of enemy ships during the conventional battle.

Self-destruct: Successfully captured ships trigger a self-destruct sequence and auto-pilot toward the nearest enemy FS. Dice roll to destroy enemy FS when they detonate.

Rapid Deployment: Dice Roll to have your special attacks occur before the enemy's special attacks.

**That's all I've thought of, though there may be more. Pre-battle, you're basically looking at ways to disable, destroy, or take over enemy ships. Not much else you can do with them.

Those kinds of things might be publicly visible, but not publicly listed. You'd know someone had it, but not necessarily what it does until several people have it or it gets used.


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The following are possible conventional battle modifiers. Few if any of these have been seen in battle, and are mostly hypothetical. Potentially very possible.

Reflective shields: Suggested by Me early on. Reflects 10% of the enemy's attack back at them. Maxes out at 30%.

Armor Debuff: disregard a % of your enemy's defenses. Probably an expensive skill.

Vampiric beam: Convert part of your enemy's armor/shields to your own shields. Probably an expensive skill.

Rapid Fire: Increase your attack by a % of your conventional modifier. Becomes more powerful as your conventional modifier increases.

Armor/shield Buff: Increase your defense by a % of your conventional modifier.   Becomes more powerful as your conventional modifier increases.

Anti-system: More commonly known as "Bombardment," this gives your fleet a specific modifier against planetary defenses. Extra levels increase effectiveness.

Anti-anti-system: A shield dome, if you will, it counters the effects of Bombardment.

Anti-fleet: Ion cannon, moon-based laser arrays, call it what you will. Provides your planets a specific modifier against incoming FS. Not yet seen in battle, but I figure what works for the goose works for the gander.

Auxilary Defense: provides x bonus FS for every 10 or so PS in your system. These come in handy for battle, but cannot otherwise be used.

Help Beacon: If you have warpgates, Auxilary FS can come to the aid of any planet under attack within x radius.

Defense Station: hypothetical here, for V2. Requires research and then deployment. It's a system-based defense that  provides either a modifier or a dice-roll to destroy enemy FS for every planet in the system.

And these might be publicly listed, but only publicly visible once used. All the techs here would need to be vetted/re-vetted for V.2 though.

Automatic Post Merge: October 18, 2013, 03:47:42 pm
Getting close to being able to launch Galactic War: Season 2.

Some more stuff I'm working on adding:

Navigational Hazards - War, Pirates, Debris, and 'Cosmic'. They will be icons placed in system hexes (if they're mostly there, the effect is in place). If you try to cross one without the proper prerequisites, you may suffer loss.
War- if you're at war, the inhabitants will just shoot you, but if you cross over a territory at war you'll need to succeed in a roll against your diplomacy to avoid incident.
Pirates - Some systems have pirates in them; they will target weak or trade fleets (and routes). They are cowards, and will leave war fleets more powerful than their own alone. Diplomacy and bribery may succeed against them, but if all else fails, get to the guns.
Debris - Whether from crushed planets or warfleets, some systems have debris. This is a minor hazard, and a roll against your defenses, less modifiers against your engines and sensors, is all it takes to cross safely. The goal is for low-level players to loose a few ships per hex.
Cosmic - Radiation, black hole, stars gone nova; basically instant death. These can be crossed, but up to a certain point (TBD), your defenses can't handle them and they are guaranteed to kill your fleets. Approach with caution. There are few of these on the map, and I'll allow you to retreat from one if you stumble upon it if you're being cautious (i.e.: jumping recklessly 5 spaces through uncharted territory = death. Jumping one-two spaces at a time = not death).

Edit: Still more stuff - Artifacts: mythical objects of amazing power. Keeping one in your territory grants a bonus in the form of a free trade route (or two, or more, depending on how I feel about the balance of that).

If my *current* players could pick spots on the new map, that'll help me set things up. Any new coming players are welcome to pick as well.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 18, 2013, 05:07:03 pm
I call De66 for GWv2
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 19, 2013, 04:40:22 pm
A good call sir. I'd like Sigma 9.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 19, 2013, 05:02:59 pm
I suppose I'll play.

I'll opt for Xi 33. For lulz.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 19, 2013, 05:39:21 pm
Yay! 


Do you have any friends who would play?  :o
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 19, 2013, 06:24:44 pm
This will be interesting.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 20, 2013, 02:55:34 am
Yay! 


Do you have any friends who would play?  :o

I have no friends. Only people I haven't yet murdered.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 20, 2013, 11:22:34 am
Yay! 


Do you have any friends who would play?  :o

I have no friends. Only people I haven't yet murdered.

Challenge Accepted.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 20, 2013, 11:58:53 am
Challenge Accepted.

I wasn't planning on being particularly aggressive against you.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 21, 2013, 11:12:34 am
I suppose I'll play.

I'll opt for Xi 33. For lulz.

Ooh, exciting! Do you have a color that you'd prefer? Ideally one that the other active players aren't using. I can change NPC colors if you want one of those too.

Also: I expect V2.0 to start in the next week or two; probably around the first full week of November. I've got some more NPC start-values to establish yet and need to spend an hour or two getting that done.

I'll try to run 2.0 concurrent with V1.0; but we will be wrapping 1.0 up. This week I'll be unable to update Thursday and next Monday, so we'll do updates next Tuesday and Thursday (8 days and 10 days from now) and then go back to the regular Monday/Thursday thing. I'll make a new GW post when we start V2.0.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 21, 2013, 11:20:46 am
I dunno. Prrple an option?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 21, 2013, 12:18:00 pm
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I'll try to run 2.0 concurrent with V1.0; but we will be wrapping 1.0 up. This week I'll be unable to update Thursday and next Monday, so we'll do updates next Tuesday and Thursday (8 days and 10 days from now) and then go back to the regular Monday/Thursday thing. I'll make a new GW post when we start V2.0.

Aww, shucks. I had planned to launch my operation to wipe out the Light Bringer and foil all their plans, via the culmination of my efforts to strategically divide the puzzle pieces to mislead even the game's moderator as to my true intentions and abilities!

But alas. It can wait.  :o

Yay! 


Do you have any friends who would play?  :o

I have no friends. Only people I haven't yet murdered.

Challenge Accepted.

Please note, I will be selling ammunition and bandaids to all interested parties.


--


On a more relevant note, I am interested in the particulars of the new point system.  How many points do we start with? How may points will regular techs, special techs, and advanced construction/research cost?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Thadius Faran on October 21, 2013, 02:33:15 pm
I'm just gonna wait for 2.0 basically. Got suprise attacked
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 21, 2013, 03:42:06 pm
I dunno. Prrple an option?

Yep, but similar to the other colors on the map (lt blue, teal, & blue; or maybe lt & dk teal, I'm colorblind so it's hard to tell.). If you're fine with that though, I use the color's RGB values to figure out which is which so it shouldn't be an issue on my end.

Aww, shucks. I had planned to launch my operation to wipe out the Light Bringer and foil all their plans, via the culmination of my efforts to strategically divide the puzzle pieces to mislead even the game's moderator as to my true intentions and abilities!

But alas. It can wait.  :o

By "we'll be wrapping up" I meant "1.0 ends sometime after 2.0 starts." You could still do all that; but I'm thinking 1.0 will definitely be done by the new year. Esp. if Thadius is loosing interest as he gets wiped out :\

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On a more relevant note, I am interested in the particulars of the new point system.  How many points do we start with? How may points will regular techs, special techs, and advanced construction/research cost?

Regular & special tech will be basically the same cost (4 & 12). Most specials will be untouched, but some will be axed/modified extensively/modified to fit the new conditions. Warpgates, for example, will be built structures since I now have space for that kind of thing. Reducing construction/research costs will be something I need to look into and probably won't be available to start out - those were added as a stop-gap to increasing AP and I think AP should be easier to get in this version.

I'm thinking you'll start with 1 AP and 3 CP. AP can be used as CP, but not the other way around. CP are used for anything that just manipulates numbers - building ships, researching, building planets. AP is used to move that stuff around and do things  - move fleets, explore, attack, and maybe use some special tech down the line.

For Niw, special tech hasn't been fully explained to outsiders because most of it has been developed on the fly, by either the players or myself. I'll try to make a better repository for special techs before starting and keep it updated, but here are the non-secret ones I have now:

EMP: Roll D6 crit to hit, D6 for damage; once per fleet-engagement. Probably update it to "once per FS" and "D20 to hit, D6 for damage." Level 2 would be "D12 to hit," level 3 D10, level 4 D8, and so on.

Warpgates: Currently allow unengaged fleets to warp to unengaged fleets/planets 3x FTL range away. Probably update to "allows travel between owned warpgates." Each 12 points would build one warpgate in a system; it would function similarly to a planet and count as such (so you'd need to STL to the gate).

Attack  Bonus: 25% bonus to fleets in enemy-controled systems. Probably drop this as it wasn't used.
Mobile Planets: Move unengaged planets for 1 action/3 planet levels. Reword to "1 AP/5 planet points (industry or strength)." Also unused, though Axis and Hufer have it.

Stealth: Fleets <5 move through neutral territory off-map. Level 2 allows FS<10 through enemy territory, level 3 <25, level 4 is unlimited. Leave as-is.

Defense Bonus: 25% bonus to fleets in friendly systems. Also probably droppable.

Free Retreat: Ships may retreat invisibly and remain invisible until player decides to reveal them (or they attack). Probably remove, it's too close to stealth and I had a hard time enforcing retreat.

SS Cost: Systems cost less; probably roll into something else or remove

AI (Red, Yellow, Blue, Green): Actually worked well; 12 to research and then 2 to apply each color. Once applied, the fleet cannot be improved on without removing the AI (You can't add ships to an AI-equipped fleet, and removing them leaves one AI fleet and one regular). One color per fleet at level 1, 2 at 2, 3 at 3, all 4 at 4. Red was 20% attack bonus, blue 20% defense bonus, Green +1 to exploration rolls, Yellow +1 to diplomacy rolls and initial diplomatic immunity. Green will be reworked to +2 against travel hazards and pirates.

Clandestine Operations: 12 to research, then the following actions are allowed: Spy - 1 point; if you drop them on a system/planet, they'll tell you something about that player once/turn with a critical D6 to fail. Additional levels cost 1 point and change his fail-roll up a die level (FYI - I'm only going to use D6, D8, D10, D12, D20). Comm Tap - 2 points; I tell you something randomly rolled about someone. I'll cull out worthless results from players who have dropped/NPCs you aren't near. Turncoat - 1 point; You pick a player and I'll announce to them (and you) that a turncoat has turned up in some system. You'll need to pick the traitor up before they do, but if you do, you get a portion of one of that player's techs that you don't already have.

Capture: Currently way OP, allows you to make a 50/50 capture roll per FS against opponents. Level 1 had disabled your ships for doing it, while level 2 took that away. I'm thinking I'm going to keep the disabling fleet portion at level 1, but change it to a critical hit (D12) to start. First upgrade takes away the disabled-fleet, after that the D# goes down.

Mines: Research, then for 2 points build a minefield in any of your systems. Rolls a D6 for destroyed enemy fleets.

Holo-fleets: Build fake fleets. Any number of ships may be in a fake fleet, but if another player approaches it it'll dissolve. If the fleet is mixed with real ships in combat, 50% of the damage will be dealt to the real ships.

FS cost: probably get rolled into something else

Probe: Allows sight into unseen/unexplored areas. I'll probably leave this alone, but give it a specific sensor value and time limit. Not sure it's worth 12, but it's also not worth 12 + X; so maybe it's a permanent explore?

Reflective Shields: 10% of damage done to your ships is done to enemies per level, up to 4 levels

interdiction: Ships cannot go FTL near your ships/planets. Level 2 is entire systems you occupy (even partially), level 3 is adjacent hexes

SS Weapon: Launched from a planet another system (level 1) for 1*PS weapon damage. Level 2 travels 2 hexes. Level 3 3-hexes; etc. Unlimited levels. There is a basic-special that allows you to attack other planets in your system for 12 points. Doing it this way will destroy indiscriminately; i.e.: you will wreck the industry and the military points on the world (I'll split the damage evenly). Each weapon is mounted permanently in a system you choose; for an additional 12 points you may start another weapon in another system or move the current weapon. For an additional 6 points you may equip *one* fleet with the weapon and fire it once per turn. The fleet is similar to an AI equipped fleet.

There are a few more, but they're secret for now.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 23, 2013, 03:51:53 pm
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I'm thinking you'll start with 1 AP and 3 CP. AP can be used as CP, but not the other way around. CP are used for anything that just manipulates numbers - building ships, researching, building planets. AP is used to move that stuff around and do things  - move fleets, explore, attack, and maybe use some special tech down the line.

Thought. If we all start with 4 points, no FTL, and no STL,  it's going to be a long time before we make contact with each other--let alone wage any meaningful campaign for supremacy. I'd like to see a way to accelerate gameplay.  One way would be to give us more points to start, and I understand that may affect your perceived balance of the game--but it also makes the game more playable. When I cook up a plan, and then work out that it'll be 3 weeks before I can implement it and another week and a half to make contact with the enemy, it's a bit disheartening. Increasing the points per turn keeps the strategy intact, because our (accelerated) decisions are being matched by our competitors.

Another way, and/or something I would like to see anyway, would be a set method of establishing faction bonuses so that nobody gets cheated with an inferior starting bonus. Instead of a general theme/tech for our race, give us 24 research points to start. That gives everyone a choice between a level-2 special tech, two level-1 special techs, a special tech and some basics, or 6 basic techs. Avoid manipulation by barring techs that affect AP/CP, and  the only reason somebody falls behind is because they made a poor choice.

A third way would be to reduce the cost of special and basic techs---1 / 2 points for a regular tech, or 3 / 6 points for a special tech. Having special techs cost 3x normal techs seems like a good balance.

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Regular & special tech will be basically the same cost (4 & 12). Most specials will be untouched, but some will be axed/modified extensively/modified to fit the new conditions. Warpgates, for example, will be built structures since I now have space for that kind of thing. Reducing construction/research costs will be something I need to look into and probably won't be available to start out - those were added as a stop-gap to increasing AP and I think AP should be easier to get in this version.


Deferring to your judgment again, but I implore you to consider reduce-cost tech  as an option--it plays heavily into my strategy. Make it twice as expensive and limit each category to level 2--for basic resarch, FS cost, or SS cost, you would have to spend 48 points to max it out (making something only 2 points to research, or a 10/20 cap for the FS / SS benefit) and another 48 points to make it worthwhile. For the "Special tech" category, you'd need 48 points to max it out (only 10 points to research) and a massive 240 points to make it worth the trouble. I'd say that's an expensive enough undertaking to make it balanced.



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Capture: Currently way OP, allows you to make a 50/50 capture roll per FS against opponents. Level 1 had disabled your ships for doing it, while level 2 took that away. I'm thinking I'm going to keep the disabling fleet portion at level 1, but change it to a critical hit (D12) to start. First upgrade takes away the disabled-fleet, after that the D# goes down.


Crazy. And thank you for saving from some potentially disastrous plans. I had no idea it was that powerful.

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Warpgates: Currently allow unengaged fleets to warp to unengaged fleets/planets 3x FTL range away. Probably update to "allows travel between owned warpgates." Each 12 points would build one warpgate in a system; it would function similarly to a planet and count as such (so you'd need to STL to the gate).



Alternate thought: What about 12 points to research and 6 to install? Still pricey, but not quite choosing between a 25% attack bonus or a second expressway.



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Free Retreat: Ships may retreat invisibly and remain invisible until player decides to reveal them (or they attack). Probably remove, it's too close to stealth and I had a hard time enforcing retreat.


I could have used that dealing with the AI. What about imposing a 1-turn limit as to the fleet whereabouts? Increased levels increase the time the fleet can remain stealthed.

It would also be more appealing if it could be used in battle. Maybe allow a 50% loss-max addon in the event of catastrophic defeat. That is, 12 points to research the tech and 6 points to research the loss-max. If the players fleets are defeated, only 50% of their value is calculated against the enemy and the rest automatically retreat. If 50% is too high, make it an FS cap--at level 1, 10 FS escape and the remaining fleet fights to the death.



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interdiction: Ships cannot go FTL near your ships/planets. Level 2 is entire systems you occupy (even partially), level 3 is adjacent hexes


If FTL is only used between systems and STL is used within the system, this would mean Interdiction 1 is completely useless.  But I may have misread that.  Question. Will anti-Interdiction be a general cure for this, or will there be a linear effectivenes? by that I mean anti-Interdiction 1 defeats Interdiction 1, but not Interdiction 2. Anti-Interdiction 2 defeats Interdiction 2, but not Interdiction 3, etc.  Otherwise, one side or the other has an uneven playing ground: I research Interdiction 5 to have a several-hex nofly/slowfly zone, but somebody with Anti-Interdiction 1 comes along and zips right through it.  It would be nice to see a linear progression on both sides of the coin, for that and other techs like Stealth.

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Probe: Allows sight into unseen/unexplored areas. I'll probably leave this alone, but give it a specific sensor value and time limit. Not sure it's worth 12, but it's also not worth 12 + X; so maybe it's a permanent explore?

What about a scan, like in Starcraft or C&C? 12 to research, 1 or 2 points to deploy. X radius at any point of the map is revealed for one turn.



Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 29, 2013, 12:07:32 pm
...And I'm back! I'll work on setting up 2.0; it seems like there isn't much interest in continuing 1.0 now? We can still finish that if you guys want (basically wipe everyone out).

Thought. If we all start with 4 points, no FTL, and no STL,  it's going to be a long time before we make contact with each other--let alone wage any meaningful campaign for supremacy. I'd like to see a way to accelerate gameplay.  One way would be to give us more points to start, and I understand that may affect your perceived balance of the game--but it also makes the game more playable. When I cook up a plan, and then work out that it'll be 3 weeks before I can implement it and another week and a half to make contact with the enemy, it's a bit disheartening. Increasing the points per turn keeps the strategy intact, because our (accelerated) decisions are being matched by our competitors.

I had considered this as well. I'm thinking that it is good to start slowish, but have set it up so I can more easily boost everyone after we get started.

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Another way, and/or something I would like to see anyway, would be a set method of establishing faction bonuses so that nobody gets cheated with an inferior starting bonus. Instead of a general theme/tech for our race, give us 24 research points to start.

That's basically what I'm going to do, though I was leaning toward "pick X specials and Y regulars." That actually cleans up the starting tech problem a bit, since you could (should) choose to have mid-level FTL/STL to start out. FYI - STL level 2-3 should be more than sufficient for you guys starting, though I think 12-13 is about the highest you'd ever need.

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A third way would be to reduce the cost of special and basic techs---1 / 2 points for a regular tech, or 3 / 6 points for a special tech. Having special techs cost 3x normal techs seems like a good balance.

This is something that needs to be decided at the start. The way it is, it takes 1 round (starting out) to research a regular tech and 3 for a special. That keeps players from running away, as your actions are basically public every round. It could be self-balancing (if you research 6 levels one round and everyone else notices and freaks out, they do that next round), but the way we did it last time worked pretty well. It also keeps decision lockup down - when you can only do 1 thing, you'll do what you perceive as most important.

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Deferring to your judgment again, but I implore you to consider reduce-cost tech  as an option--it plays heavily into my strategy. Make it twice as expensive and limit each category to level 2--for basic resarch, FS cost, or SS cost, you would have to spend 48 points to max it out (making something only 2 points to research, or a 10/20 cap for the FS / SS benefit) and another 48 points to make it worthwhile. For the "Special tech" category, you'd need 48 points to max it out (only 10 points to research) and a massive 240 points to make it worth the trouble. I'd say that's an expensive enough undertaking to make it balanced.

I like having the cost reduction stuff, I just need to figure out a way to keep it from being a runaway thing and make it easy for me to track.

Wait, got it. I'll let you build structures (12 ea) that produce points for specific tasks - research, shipyards, ground troops, and industry. They'll do it auto-magically, but they can be captured or destroyed. They produce 1 point per round. I'm not sure whether to make them planet-like (platforms) or make them specialties you can add to planets instead of troops/industry points. If they're planet-like, I'm leaning toward limiting them to 1 per system. If not, they wouldn't be limited to 1/system, but they would (potentailly) be a double-whammy to your production.

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[Warpgates]Alternate thought: What about 12 points to research and 6 to install? Still pricey, but not quite choosing between a 25% attack bonus or a second expressway.

Maybe. Space-platforms should be expensive things, but warpgates aren't fully platforms. A sub-benefit might be that I'd let you move fleets *for free* between warpgates; while moving them without warpgates costs AP.

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[Free Retreat]I could have used that dealing with the AI. What about imposing a 1-turn limit as to the fleet whereabouts? Increased levels increase the time the fleet can remain stealthed.


Still feels to close to stealth; you could spend 12 and get to retreat to stealth, or 12 and be stealthed whenever you want.

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It would also be more appealing if it could be used in battle. Maybe allow a 50% loss-max addon in the event of catastrophic defeat. That is, 12 points to research the tech and 6 points to research the loss-max. If the players fleets are defeated, only 50% of their value is calculated against the enemy and the rest automatically retreat. If 50% is too high, make it an FS cap--at level 1, 10 FS escape and the remaining fleet fights to the death.

Something like this is better, make the retreat (1) Possible and (2) Reduce your losses. I didn't like enforcing retreat as a thing anyway though, so reducing your losses is more appealing to me.



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[interdiction]If FTL is only used between systems and STL is used within the system, this would mean Interdiction 1 is completely useless.  But I may have misread that.  Question. Will anti-Interdiction be a general cure for this, or will there be a linear effectivenes? by that I mean anti-Interdiction 1 defeats Interdiction 1, but not Interdiction 2. Anti-Interdiction 2 defeats Interdiction 2, but not Interdiction 3, etc.  Otherwise, one side or the other has an uneven playing ground: I research Interdiction 5 to have a several-hex nofly/slowfly zone, but somebody with Anti-Interdiction 1 comes along and zips right through it.  It would be nice to see a linear progression on both sides of the coin, for that and other techs like Stealth.

The way I envisioned it was level 1 preventing FTL when enemies are in orbit around your planets, so not great but if you own all the planets in a system it's basically the same as level 2. Level 2 prevents FTL for enemies in systems where you have planets; whether the enemies have planets there or not (since more than one player can have planets in a system). Level 3 starts with effecting adjacent systems. It only causes players you want to stop to stop, so you'd need to tell me who you don't want flying in your systems.

I haven't solidified how STL/FTL interact, but I'm leaning toward having players enter a system in the center and then STL to one of my standard planet-positions (similar to how LB systems work, you always go to 12:00 after the middle and then fly clockwise or whatever). Then I'm considering requiring 1 level of STL for each planet-FTL zone-planet change (you'd need FTL 2 to leave a system and land on a planet in an adjacent system in one turn). This does allow players to 'escape' Interdiction 1, but requires them to leave by STL which they may not have invested in.

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[Probe]What about a scan, like in Starcraft or C&C? 12 to research, 1 or 2 points to deploy. X radius at any point of the map is revealed for one turn.

That's what I was thinking, but I'm not sure it's worth that. Maybe it's a built facility as the above industries and you can use it for free every turn; so it's a permanent explore until you move it to look somewhere else. I'm liking these permanent facility ideas, so I think I'll go that way.



Any more comments/questions/suggestions before we get started?

 I have the map ready for early-level turns, but it still needs some development that I can do while we're playing if needed. I've also got to firm up some rules, but we can start with tech-turns and early exploration Thursday if you guys are down. For now, let's say you can pick 32 points of tech and see how that goes. I'll assign fleet/planet/military strengths later; would you prefer to pick your breakdown or have me just give you all the same thing? It'll be lowish (say 2 of each category) in any event.

Basic (4 point) Techs:
FTL
Sublight (STL)
Diplomacy
Sensors
Repair
Industry
Efficiency
Trade
Weapons
Defenses
Fleet Quality
Planet (military) Quality
Bombardment (FS -> PS)
Launch (PS -> same system PS or FS)

Specials are listed above, or you can come up with something (anything, really) and PM me about it and we'll work it out. They cost 12 for the purposes of picking now, and I'm open to change the cost of all techs before the actual rounds start. As HT mentions above, the 1:3 ratio for cost of regular to special tech seems to work well and I'd like to keep it.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Niwantaw on October 29, 2013, 12:25:40 pm
May I suggest increasing the cap to 32 or reducing it to 28. Simply so we don't get points left over? :L

Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 29, 2013, 01:04:36 pm
May I suggest increasing the cap to 32 or reducing it to 28. Simply so we don't get points left over? :L



You are correct; 32.

Also, to make sure we're clear, that's the number of points you get to spend on tech at the above rates. I'll give you guys starting planet strength and military strength later, but it'll probably be low.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 30, 2013, 07:49:23 am
Sounds good. I like the platforms for cost reduction and 32 points to start.

For economic / military strength, I'd love it if we could avoid limiting the strength of any individual planet, at least to the same extent we had last time. Using the saturation technique you did last time made it hard for me to see the exact strength of a system, true, but counting the dots and eyeballing their brightness makes for a decent guess.


Also, I think I should be the winner of the first Galactic War by virtue of being the last participating player with actions entered.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Commander Jackson on October 30, 2013, 11:11:23 am
I had entered my actions via PM.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 30, 2013, 11:19:35 am
oh...lol scratch that then. :)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 30, 2013, 11:52:01 am
Sounds good. I like the platforms for cost reduction and 32 points to start.

For economic / military strength, I'd love it if we could avoid limiting the strength of any individual planet, at least to the same extent we had last time. Using the saturation technique you did last time made it hard for me to see the exact strength of a system, true, but counting the dots and eyeballing their brightness makes for a decent guess.

It shouldn't be a problem. Right now, I've got 2 'shades' that get used for each strength type. Black & 50% gray for economy, Red & 50% shaded red for military. With those and the 9 px of the planet, you can have 45 total strength per planet. I could always add additional dots, shades, or both. For now, I think 45 combined military/industrial strength should be good - none of you got much more than 10 SS usually in the first setup.

I do like the limitation that having to choose between military or economic development provides (in fact, the system is designed to have that be the major limiting factor for militarizing planets - you aren't paying upkeep for ground troops, they just take up space you could use for economic development), so I won't be wanting to make it unlimited. I also didn't like the saturation system because it was a lot of work on my end; limiting the colors to a few that I can easily switch between is easier, and should be easier for you (without Photoshop/GIMP/Etc. capabilities) to determine how strong a planet is.

Development is designed to be a ratio - if you have many high-economy planets, you'll have more AP/CP than if you have many low-economy planets. After maxing out on economy, you can't get a higher ratio by having more planets (every planet at 45 maxes out the equation, any new planet will lower your AP/CP until it is maxed out, though not noticeably if you have lots of planets).

Quote
Also, I think I should be the winner of the first Galactic War by virtue of being the last participating player with actions entered.

CJ's got research actions in, so you're not quite there yet ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 30, 2013, 12:50:53 pm
Quote
Development is designed to be a ratio - if you have many high-economy planets, you'll have more AP/CP than if you have many low-economy planets. After maxing out on economy, you can't get a higher ratio by having more planets (every planet at 45 maxes out the equation, any new planet will lower your AP/CP until it is maxed out, though not noticeably if you have lots of planets).

We would still get additional AP for the planets though, right? Let's say my ratio is high 5:1 economic to military, and I I build up 6 planets in a system. 5 of those have completely economic development. That's 270 points, admittedly more than any of us accomplished in the last round. There should still be some points incoming as I add PI, right?

Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 30, 2013, 01:39:20 pm
Quote
Development is designed to be a ratio - if you have many high-economy planets, you'll have more AP/CP than if you have many low-economy planets. After maxing out on economy, you can't get a higher ratio by having more planets (every planet at 45 maxes out the equation, any new planet will lower your AP/CP until it is maxed out, though not noticeably if you have lots of planets).

We would still get additional AP for the planets though, right? Let's say my ratio is high 5:1 economic to military, and I I build up 6 planets in a system. 5 of those have completely economic development. That's 270 points, admittedly more than any of us accomplished in the last round. There should still be some points incoming as I add PI, right?



You know what, I'll change it to account for additional planets; though you'll get more if each planet is more developed.

So right now, if you have a single 45-economy planet, you'll max out your AP/CP given for planet development. The max is going to be pretty hard to achieve, but is (with a 45 unit cap) something like 7/10 AP/CP. If you build a second planet at 1-economy, you now have a total of 46 economy and two planets, so you'll loose some AP/CP (my numbers show you'll go to 6/8 or so). If you add another, it looks like you'll be at 5/8. It's an average, so in the last case it'd be as though you had all 15 2/3 PI planets. And before anyone asks, no; I absolutely cannot account for individual planet strengths differently.

You also get a bonus for your tech development; this is just from planet-industry. As I mentioned though, I'm going to add in a small boost based on how many planets you own; it shouldn't counter out the loss from a low-development planet, but should be an incentive to keep building. The other incentive is that it's harder to be wiped out, and you can work your averages so that you have greater military strength while still having decent economic strength.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 30, 2013, 01:53:28 pm
This should be fun. How do we drum up new players?
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 30, 2013, 03:12:45 pm
This should be fun. How do we drum up new players?

Not sure; the trouble with this forum is that its population is based on the game's popularity. So we need to harass the old-timers into playing; which is basically Devs, Mods, and you guys. We could see if Strait wants to play I guess. I'm hoping to be able to launch either tomorrow (!) or Monday. I was working on an initial rules post; but since you guys know the jist of how things work, I can launch earlier if I hold off on doing that. I'll start a new thread for it in any case.

You can all get your tech picks in in the new thread.
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Holy Thunder on October 31, 2013, 01:06:11 pm
My GW2 post is updated.

Also, I invited my bro and a couple of RL friends to check it out. You think we could start a Season 2 Meta Thread, with simple condensed rules so new guys/girls understand it?

I'd do it myself, but I don't want to cross the moderator if I get any of it wrong...  ;)
Title: Re: Galactic War: Meta-Thread
Post by: Me2005 on October 31, 2013, 03:18:35 pm
My GW2 post is updated.

Also, I invited my bro and a couple of RL friends to check it out. You think we could start a Season 2 Meta Thread, with simple condensed rules so new guys/girls understand it?

I'd do it myself, but I don't want to cross the moderator if I get any of it wrong...  ;)

I suppose that is called for, though I'm hoping to write out the rules for GWS2 in the opening post eventually. I'm currently working on getting the initial special tech list sorted out, once you guys have everything updated we can get going though.